***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!***

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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Teitan » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:18 am

I'd like to see Smiths mid season split. He was very bad but then started playing very well in the second half.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Brazen331 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:22 am

mdb1958 wrote:The chart shows poor performance from the 1st round picks all the way to undrafted - go figure.


So true. I having been watching the draft for years and all 7 of these rounds routinely produce poor performers.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Nano » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:25 am

I knew Giants fans hated Flowers but I didn't think it was that bad
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:30 am

Smith has played every down his first 2 years in the league and is still 23yrs old. He certainly needs to continue to improve/develop and I think year 3 will be big for him. He needs to take that next step and be more consistent while reducing the penalties.

If not I could see us drafting an OT next offseason.

I'm much higher on Cam Robinson than most, but whther it's Cam, Ramzyck, or Bolles I'd be fine w/ an OT. I'll never be too upset at drafting linemen early on either side of the ball tbh.

The kid from Bucknell Julien Davenport is nice rd 3-4 guy that will take 1-2 years to develop but has all the tools to be really good Tackle. Garcia is another that I like on day 2.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:39 am

That chart is lazy. Are these pressures from a 4 man rush? 5 man? 6 man? All out blitz? Was the tackle in question responsible for the rusher who put on the pressure? Did the pressure come immediately or after the QB held on to the ball for a while. It's not a coincidence that Flowers & Smith are stop that list as their respective And have reputations for holding on to the ball too long thrn making questionable throws. I'm not suggesting either is Orlando Pace but that chart hardly tells a complete story. Also James flushes himself out of the pocket on occasion as well so is it likely that a "pressure" is being attributed here? Look at the tape. Smith played well and got better as the year went on. I think he'll play even better in year 3. Fans need to be patient and understand that development is necessary. The next guy isn't always the better option.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Noles1724 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:57 am

mdb1958 wrote:The chart shows poor performance from the 1st round picks all the way to undrafted - go figure.


also shows bad performances of football players.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:00 am

There is a chance a pile of linemen in this draft will make a list like that - again go figure.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby tjax03 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:13 am

So who are are 1st round options?

So far I have

Cam Robinson
David Ndjoku
Dalvin Cook
John Ross
Taco Charlton


anyone else you see that are obvious choices given to who picks who before us? Any off the wall Ali marpet type of guys?
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby GameTime » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:44 am

MJW wrote:
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I wonder, who are the 3 year and under Ts with 400 snaps who arent on the list? Im sure there are some, just cant think of good comparisons offhand.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Caradoc » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:59 pm

2015+ 2016 season #'s and age

Reiff seasons 4 & 5 (28)

Barksdale seasons 6 & 7 (29)

Remmers seasons 5 & 6 (28)

Gilliam seasons 2 & 3 (26)

Clemmings seasons 1 & 2 (25)

Flowers seasons 1 & 2 (22)

Smith seasons 1 & 2 (23)

The only guy with the same experience and age as Smith is Flowers who went #9 overall. You could also look at Smith compared to a veteran like Reiff and see the difference in total pressures allowed equates to about 1/2 a pressure per game.

Looking back at the last two drafts Smith is arguably the best tackle drafted outside of Conklin (although I am sure I missed someone). The tackles in 2015 drafted before him don't even play LT (or even Tackle at all). (Peat got time at LT because of injury only). 2016 has more potential with Tunsil and Conklin.


A lot of the hate for Smith is just people wanting to sound smarter than the team/other posters. Smith wasn't an elite prospect, the team knew that, but he is a long term investment. People act like Donald Penn was a top LT the moment he joined the Bucs, and that his first two seasons as a starter were better than Smiths (they weren't). Getting a starting calibre LT isn't easy, and even elite prospects often bust or underwhelm (Flowers, Gallery, etc).

Smith has played much better than his detractors give him credit for, at a young age. He is still also somewhat raw - he wasn't a guy who entered the draft at 24 with years of college experience. I expect that a year or two from now, people are going to be talking about what a steal we got with the guy.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Buc2 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:11 pm

threadkiller wrote:
MJW wrote:You guys want him to be something he's not, and it's an unreasonable expectation on your part. It's your problem, not his. The guy goes out and produces on the field at a rate only a handful of players at his position are capable of. He's never going to be Warren Sapp, which is what everyone is REALLY asking for here - a field marshal who fires up the D and has swagger and punches guys in the kidney in the pile. That's not who McCoy is. That's not who he was when he was at OU and that's not who he was when he was drafted #3 overall. You don't "become" that guy and when you try, you end up with that Dallas pregame speech.

Let it go. Let the man go out and do his job because he's damn good at it.


It's whatever, but this is a topic here because Gerald McCoy talked at length about wanting to be something that he has not been thus far is a professional. He expressed the opinion that what he has been has not been sufficient for what he wants.

But nowhere did he say he want to be more of an ***hole on the field (i.e., punching kidneys in the pile, swaggering around the field, etc.). He said that he needs to be closing out games in the 4th quarter (i.e., sacking/pressuring the QB) instead of disappearing.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Naismith » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:12 pm

Caradoc wrote:A lot of the hate for Smith is just people wanting to sound smarter than the team/other posters. Smith wasn't an elite prospect, the team knew that, but he is a long term investment. People act like Donald Penn was a top LT the moment he joined the Bucs, and that his first two seasons as a starter were better than Smiths (they weren't). Getting a starting calibre LT isn't easy, and even elite prospects often bust or underwhelm (Flowers, Gallery, etc).

Smith has played much better than his detractors give him credit for, at a young age. He is still also somewhat raw - he wasn't a guy who entered the draft at 24 with years of college experience. I expect that a year or two from now, people are going to be talking about what a steal we got with the guy.


This just isn't true. He's been amongst the worst graded tackles two years in a row by PFF. He's given up the second most amount of pressures allowed amongst tackles over the last two years. Criticism of his play is justified. Doesn't mean he can't improve and become a good starter, but he definitely has not played well and does need to improve.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:13 pm

Naismith wrote:
Caradoc wrote:A lot of the hate for Smith is just people wanting to sound smarter than the team/other posters. Smith wasn't an elite prospect, the team knew that, but he is a long term investment. People act like Donald Penn was a top LT the moment he joined the Bucs, and that his first two seasons as a starter were better than Smiths (they weren't). Getting a starting calibre LT isn't easy, and even elite prospects often bust or underwhelm (Flowers, Gallery, etc).

Smith has played much better than his detractors give him credit for, at a young age. He is still also somewhat raw - he wasn't a guy who entered the draft at 24 with years of college experience. I expect that a year or two from now, people are going to be talking about what a steal we got with the guy.


This just isn't true. He's been amongst the worst graded tackles two years in a row by PFF. He's given up the second most amount of pressures allowed amongst tackles over the last two years. Criticism of his play is justified. Doesn't mean he can't improve and become a good starter, but he definitely has not played well and does need to improve.


And once again Dirk Koetter would be the 1st person to tell you to take those OFF ratings and shove them up your ass. They don't take a ton of data into account.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Naismith » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:17 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:And once again Dirk Koetter would be the 1st person to tell you to take those OFF ratings and shove them up your ass. They don't take a ton of data into account.


You say that every time, yet he never has and you always do, so I suspect you'd be the first person to say that.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Caradoc » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:18 pm

Naismith wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:And once again Dirk Koetter would be the 1st person to tell you to take those OFF ratings and shove them up your ass. They don't take a ton of data into account.


You say that every time, yet he never has and you always do, so I suspect you'd be the first person to say that.



He has said it before, as has Belicheck, as have many other coaches, yet you continue to insist they never have.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:23 pm

Naismith wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:And once again Dirk Koetter would be the 1st person to tell you to take those OFF ratings and shove them up your ass. They don't take a ton of data into account.


You say that every time, yet he never has and you always do, so I suspect you'd be the first person to say that.


Here you go.

“I know there’s the critics out there that have their own grading scale, the mysterious grading scale. We look at our own grading scale. We’re going to grade them how – because we know what they are supposed to be doing every play. Other people that grade them, how do you grade someone when you don’t know what they are supposed to do?



http://www.joebucsfan.com/2016/10/dirk- ... pff-tribe/
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Naismith » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:24 pm

Caradoc wrote:
Naismith wrote:
You say that every time, yet he never has and you always do, so I suspect you'd be the first person to say that.



He has said it before, as has Belicheck, as have many other coaches, yet you continue to insist they never have.


LOL, I promise you Dirk has never said anything to me about any ratings. But I know you guys don't like any kind of ratings or data that aren't straight objective (or in Bootz' case, a lot of times that are objective but he thinks are subjective), but I'd love to see anything that supports the idea that Smith hasn't been bad other than just your opinion.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Doctor » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:34 pm

People on this board love to hate on Smith. We've also become strangers to the concept of developing and grooming players. Everything has either been awesome rookie out of the gate or FA signing here for a long time. I think Smith is developing just fine and am very excited to see him continue to grow this year. Even if we were to draft a OT in the 1st it's doubtful they'd come close to beating out Smith for the starting LT spot. People give college kids way too much hype.

I also think Dotson is being very underrated by this board. His biggest weakness these past two years has been injuries and having us watch Cherilus. Thank goodness that's over. I'm on board with Julie'n Davenport who the FO has met with a couple of times already. He's a mid-late round project. Groom him for the last year or two of the Dotson era (or until he's simply a better player than Demar).

At the end if we do end up drafting an OT in the first (which the draft would have to fall mighty poorly for that to happen), he won't be starting. Bank on that.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby theBKwhopper » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:17 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
Naismith wrote:
You say that every time, yet he never has and you always do, so I suspect you'd be the first person to say that.


Here you go.

“I know there’s the critics out there that have their own grading scale, the mysterious grading scale. We look at our own grading scale. We’re going to grade them how – because we know what they are supposed to be doing every play. Other people that grade them, how do you grade someone when you don’t know what they are supposed to do?



http://www.joebucsfan.com/2016/10/dirk- ... pff-tribe/

Perfect. I'd prefer to upgrade the OL, obviously, but we don't know enough to make the judgement on how to.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby PrimeMinister » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:45 pm

Caradoc wrote:2015+ 2016 season #'s and age

Reiff seasons 4 & 5 (28)

Barksdale seasons 6 & 7 (29)

Remmers seasons 5 & 6 (28)

Gilliam seasons 2 & 3 (26)

Clemmings seasons 1 & 2 (25)

Flowers seasons 1 & 2 (22)

Smith seasons 1 & 2 (23)

The only guy with the same experience and age as Smith is Flowers who went #9 overall. You could also look at Smith compared to a veteran like Reiff and see the difference in total pressures allowed equates to about 1/2 a pressure per game.

Looking back at the last two drafts Smith is arguably the best tackle drafted outside of Conklin (although I am sure I missed someone). The tackles in 2015 drafted before him don't even play LT (or even Tackle at all). (Peat got time at LT because of injury only). 2016 has more potential with Tunsil and Conklin.


A lot of the hate for Smith is just people wanting to sound smarter than the team/other posters. Smith wasn't an elite prospect, the team knew that, but he is a long term investment. People act like Donald Penn was a top LT the moment he joined the Bucs, and that his first two seasons as a starter were better than Smiths (they weren't). Getting a starting calibre LT isn't easy, and even elite prospects often bust or underwhelm (Flowers, Gallery, etc).

Smith has played much better than his detractors give him credit for, at a young age. He is still also somewhat raw - he wasn't a guy who entered the draft at 24 with years of college experience. I expect that a year or two from now, people are going to be talking about what a steal we got with the guy.


Excellent post. Player development is a foreign concept around here. I think Smith will turn out to be a good LT. Just based on the eye test alone he improved over the second half of last year.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:02 pm

PrimeMinister wrote:
Caradoc wrote:2015+ 2016 season #'s and age

Reiff seasons 4 & 5 (28)

Barksdale seasons 6 & 7 (29)

Remmers seasons 5 & 6 (28)

Gilliam seasons 2 & 3 (26)

Clemmings seasons 1 & 2 (25)

Flowers seasons 1 & 2 (22)

Smith seasons 1 & 2 (23)

The only guy with the same experience and age as Smith is Flowers who went #9 overall. You could also look at Smith compared to a veteran like Reiff and see the difference in total pressures allowed equates to about 1/2 a pressure per game.

Looking back at the last two drafts Smith is arguably the best tackle drafted outside of Conklin (although I am sure I missed someone). The tackles in 2015 drafted before him don't even play LT (or even Tackle at all). (Peat got time at LT because of injury only). 2016 has more potential with Tunsil and Conklin.


A lot of the hate for Smith is just people wanting to sound smarter than the team/other posters. Smith wasn't an elite prospect, the team knew that, but he is a long term investment. People act like Donald Penn was a top LT the moment he joined the Bucs, and that his first two seasons as a starter were better than Smiths (they weren't). Getting a starting calibre LT isn't easy, and even elite prospects often bust or underwhelm (Flowers, Gallery, etc).

Smith has played much better than his detractors give him credit for, at a young age. He is still also somewhat raw - he wasn't a guy who entered the draft at 24 with years of college experience. I expect that a year or two from now, people are going to be talking about what a steal we got with the guy.


Excellent post. Player development is a foreign concept around here. I think Smith will turn out to be a good LT. Just based on the eye test alone he improved over the second half of last year.


I admittedly did not think he could be an NFL LT long term when we drafted him. Didn't think that after his rookie year. Then he got better. Doc is right. He's been much better than his detractors and even myself gave him credit for. But the thing that sticks out to me is I don't remember hearing his name much the 2nd half of the year. He appears to be someone who's improving at his craft. It's a beautiful thing. Something most fans know nothing about if they don't know much about the game.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:59 pm

Draftekk's latest mock has Obi going to Carolina with their 40th pick. This guy - I think could make Mike go back to crying about not being able to bring down the reception.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby ComingThisFall » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:24 pm

The look on Jameis' face while McCoy is giving that pep talk says it all. He looks pained and befuddled, but is still trying to get behind it.

I liked the anger and determination McCcoy had in his his presser. Hopefully he has a chip on his shoulder this year and finds a way to stay fresh at the end of games.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:16 pm

Pretty much a formality, but Jaq Smith will officially be back in 2017.

Roy Cummings‏ @RCummingsFRS

DE Jac Smith will be back with the #Bucs for 2017. An RFA, he did not sign an offer sheet from a rival club before Friday's 4 p.m. deadline
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Caradoc » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:26 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
Naismith wrote:
You say that every time, yet he never has and you always do, so I suspect you'd be the first person to say that.


Here you go.

“I know there’s the critics out there that have their own grading scale, the mysterious grading scale. We look at our own grading scale. We’re going to grade them how – because we know what they are supposed to be doing every play. Other people that grade them, how do you grade someone when you don’t know what they are supposed to do?



http://www.joebucsfan.com/2016/10/dirk- ... pff-tribe/


While we are on the subject, he're Belicheck basically saying PFF doesn't have any clue with their grades:

https://bostonsportsmedia.com/2014/06/0 ... y-trusted/

Last August, Bill Belichick talked about the dangers of watching film and making conclusions based on it.

It might even look to us like somebody made a mistake but then we look at it more closely maybe somebody besides him made a mistake and he was trying to compensate. I think we need a little closer analysis a lot of times. Sometimes the play calls or what was called on the line of scrimmage might be something that we’re not aware of. That could happen in any game. You think a player did something that he shouldn’t have done but maybe he got a call, a line call or a call from a linebacker or he thought the quarterback said something so he did what he thought was the right thing or maybe it was the right thing but that call shouldn’t have been made or should have been on the other side. But yeah, I think we need to be careful about what we’re evaluating.

So sometimes even the team itself doesn’t know exactly where things broke down and who did what wrong. Belichick then went on to talk about watching opposing team’s game films and the impossibilities of knowing what happened:

But believe me, I’ve watched plenty of preseason games this time of year and you’re looking at all the other teams in the league and you try to evaluate players and you’re watching the teams that we’re going to play early in the season and there are plenty of plays where I have no idea what went wrong. Something’s wrong but I don’t…these two guys made a mistake but I don’t know which guy it was or if it was both of them. You just don’t know that. I don’t know how you can know that unless you’re really part of the team and know exactly what was supposed to happen on that play. I know there are a lot of experts out there that have it all figured out but I definitely don’t. This time of year, sometimes it’s hard to figure that out, exactly what they’re trying to do. When somebody makes a mistake, whose mistake is it?

Bill Belichick doesn’t have it figured out. But Pro Football Focus does? They can provide a grade on every play?


That bold is snark directed directly at the grading system, if you struggle with reading comprehension


And more:

Another problem is that the NFL just recently added the coaches film to Game Rewind, so before that, the PFF graders could not even see the entire field. I don’t know if they currently even utilize the overhead game film, or just rely on the standard HD game telecasts. If it is the latter, they cannot see every player on the field for every play…so how can they grade what they can’t see? (And actually, the All-22 film doesn’t come out until mid-week, which is after PFF has posted their initial grades- so they’re not using it, at least in their first gradings.)


So they also aren't even using the All-22 for their grades in all likelihood.

In short, no team gives a crap about PFF's "grades" they care about the objective measurables they collect (they collect whatever you ask, air time, release time, hand time, snap counts, etc)
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Super K » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:29 pm

Well done Caradoc and Bootz..

**** PFF..
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Caradoc » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:30 pm

Marvin Lewis also disagrees with some internet poster called "Naismith"

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2013/3/19/41 ... ball-focus

"they look at some dumb ass web site that doesn’t have any idea of what football is. The same website that two years ago that rated Kelly Jennings the best tackling corner in the NFL. These people who aren’t football they are trying to be critical. ."
Last edited by Caradoc on Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Caradoc » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:34 pm

BREAKING: Three time probowler Greg Olsen also disagrees with random internet poster:

http://car.247sports.com/Bolt/Greg-Olse ... s-45282687

I constantly see people reference @PFF for NFL analysis and I am baffled by it.



For the purpose of data collection and raw info? Useful. For the purpose of GRADING a certain player/ play? Comical



Yes to data, no to grades? Hmmmm, wonder where I've heard that before?
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Caradoc » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:37 pm

UPDATED: NFL Coach and college coaching legend Chip Kelly weighs in on this important issue:

http://ninerswire.usatoday.com/2016/12/ ... all-focus/

Kelly: “No, I mean I’ve said it all along, how can they grade an offensive lineman when they don’t know what the play is? I’ve had it before, our left tackle gave up a sack. He didn’t give up a sack because the guy slanted in the ‘B’ gap. The guard had ‘B’ gap and that’s not the left tackle’s responsibility, but it’s written down as a sack on the left tackle because you don’t know what play was called. We called slide protection. We didn’t call man protection. If someone can look at a film and figure out what we call for a play and know what our scheme is and then give a guy a grade on it, I think there’s a lot of players and coaches that feel the same way. I don’t know. You can do whatever you want with it. It’s like me going into a bank and grading a teller because they gave me a lollipop. I gave them a 94.3.

Reporter: I'd go 100 percent

Kelly: “I mean, it depends on what lollipop. It was purple and I wanted red, but they did give you a lollipop. But, I didn’t know they weren’t allowed to give purple out that day. So, if I did know that I probably would have given them a higher grade, but I didn’t know the information going in.”

Last edited by Caradoc on Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:37 pm

I'm not even sure how useful the data is. They keep all of their information and formulas secret. What exactly are they grading and how?
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