Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby Noles1724 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:56 pm

Didn't young win Rookie of the Year?
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby Deja Entendu » Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:54 pm

Young started his career almost identically to McNabb. He then went on to win Rookie of the Year. His career didn't turn out the way it did because he was thrown in too soon. That's not even revionist history you're writing, it's just inaccurate.

I also didn't say that if they can't go from day one they aren't the guy, I said if they can't handle the heat from starting that early, then they aren't the right guy. They are two completely different statements. It's about being able to handle the adversity.

As for the rest of your post, its a straw man rambling and since it doesn't really address, challenge, or refute my last post, I'll just leave it be for now... besides saying Bortles sucks and would have regardless of how he was groomed.


In general, I agree that if you can sit a guy, then you may as well allow him more time to settle in as long it's best for the team. However, I strongly/totally/completely/absolutely disagree that starting a guy that was drafted early on to be the franchise QB from day one is a detriment. There is no real evidence to support that, and I gave quite a few examples that refute it. Those examples weren't even cherry picked, they were recent and notable examples from memory.
Last edited by Deja Entendu on Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby Deja Entendu » Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:56 pm

Noles1724 wrote:Didn't young win Rookie of the Year?

But imagine if he sat longer! He wouldn't have had to carry the weight of that success and have it ruin his career.
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby Deja Entendu » Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:57 pm

In summary: if you take a guy early to be the franchise QB, then he better be able to handle the pressures and lumps that come with starting early on. If he can't, then he shouldn't have been taken early on. Period.
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby Doctor » Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:29 am

Deja Entendu wrote:
In general, I agree that if you can sit a guy, then you may as well allow him more time to settle in as long it's best for the team. However, I strongly/totally/completely/absolutely disagree that starting a guy that was drafted early on to be the franchise QB from day one is a detriment. There is no real evidence to support that, and I gave quite a few examples that refute it. Those examples weren't even cherry picked, they were recent and notable examples from memory.

Starting the right guy early is not. Starting the WRONG guy early is. But just because a guy isn't an early-start guy doesn't mean he's not the RIGHT pick or QB.

Deja Entendu wrote:In summary: if you take a guy early to be the franchise QB, then he better be able to handle the pressures and lumps that come with starting early on. If he can't, then he shouldn't have been taken early on. Period.

This is where you are most wrong. The idea that if you take him early he MUST start early, or don't take him. That's total bullshit. Again, what the hell is wrong with a McNair, a McNabb, a Culpepper, a Palmer, an Eli, a Rivers, or a Goff? There are plenty of guys that aren't ready to start early but totally SHOULD have been taken early because the return on them (even after sitting for some time) is so good.
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby Deja Entendu » Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:29 am

Doctor wrote:
Deja Entendu wrote:
In general, I agree that if you can sit a guy, then you may as well allow him more time to settle in as long it's best for the team. However, I strongly/totally/completely/absolutely disagree that starting a guy that was drafted early on to be the franchise QB from day one is a detriment. There is no real evidence to support that, and I gave quite a few examples that refute it. Those examples weren't even cherry picked, they were recent and notable examples from memory.

Starting the right guy early is not. Starting the WRONG guy early is. But just because a guy isn't an early-start guy doesn't mean he's not the RIGHT pick or QB.

Deja Entendu wrote:In summary: if you take a guy early to be the franchise QB, then he better be able to handle the pressures and lumps that come with starting early on. If he can't, then he shouldn't have been taken early on. Period.

This is where you are most wrong. The idea that if you take him early he MUST start early, or don't take him. That's total bullshit. Again, what the hell is wrong with a McNair, a McNabb, a Culpepper, a Palmer, an Eli, a Rivers, or a Goff? There are plenty of guys that aren't ready to start early but totally SHOULD have been taken early because the return on them (even after sitting for some time) is so good.


You're still not following. Nowhere am I saying that if you take him early you MUST start him. I'm saying that if he's the right guy then starting him from the beginning, IF he is your best option at QB, shouldn't be a detriment to him. If it is, then he was the wrong guy.

I will say again though, that there is absolutely nothing to suggest that the guys you mentioned would not have been fine starting earlier in their career. You're only basis is the fact that they didn't start day one and had good careers. That's not a real argument.

In spite of that, I'll address your list:

First off, McNabb and Manning got thrown into the fire pretty early into their first season, so there's that.

Secondly, pretty much everyone you named except Goff (who the jury is clearly still out on anyway) also had the luxury of getting drafted by teams with suitable options to start the season with:

- The Giants had future HOFer Kurt Warner (yet Eli still ended up the starter by midseason).
- The Vikings had Randall Cunningham who was coming off of a stellar year at the twilight of his career and Jeff George, another seasoned vet.
- The Chargers had Drew Brees.
- The Bengals had Jon Kitna who won Comeback Player of the Year while Palmer sat.
- The Oilers had Chandler who beat out McNair and had one of the best seasons of his career.
- The Eagles had Pederson who was brought in solely as a placeholder because he knew Reid's offense and because Reid thought he would make a good mentor (foreshadowing). McNabb saw action in week 2 (against our Bucs actually *side note: I was at that game and my dad kicked a FG at half time and won a gift bag.)

Again, though, none of this really matters because there is absolutely NOTHING to suggest they'd have been ruined had they started week one. There are, however, MANY examples of QBs who started from day one and were not ruined.

There's nothing wrong with the opinion that young QBs should sit and learn. Nothing at all. Obviously, it can only benefit the player. However, to state that it'll be detrimental to have them start from day one is a total fallacy.
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby Phantom Phenom » Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:46 pm

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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby BucJordan » Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:47 pm

Poor Browns. I want to look at their schedule and say Buffalo next week gives them their best shot to get a win. But honestly, that's what I thought about the Bengals this week, and they crapped the bed.

Any given Sunday and all that but at this point, I'd bet on them going winless.
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby Miller4Prez64 » Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:25 pm

They're going winless, I thought today was their day and they crapped the bed. We shall soon welcome the Browns to our sad pathetic family of winless season teams.
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby Super K » Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:29 pm

Miller4Prez64 wrote:They're going winless, I thought today was their day and they crapped the bed. We shall soon welcome the Browns to our sad pathetic family of winless season teams.


It was meant to be...

I've always felt a kinship with the Browns and their fans...

Come the end of week 17, that bond will be written blood and tears...
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby Nano » Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:32 pm

They still have a chance to win a game imo. Buffalo is falling apart, and San Diego looks defeated.

Most likely won't happen tho
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby Doctor » Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:36 pm

Nano wrote:They still have a chance to win a game imo. Buffalo is falling apart, and San Diego looks defeated.

Most likely won't happen tho

I think it will. Those teams are dejected right now meanwhile Cleveland is fighting for survival. No one cares if you go 1-15. 0-16 is a scar for the history books.
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby DKWEST » Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:55 pm

Johnny Football

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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby Miller4Prez64 » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:29 pm

Doctor wrote:
Nano wrote:They still have a chance to win a game imo. Buffalo is falling apart, and San Diego looks defeated.

Most likely won't happen tho

I think it will. Those teams are dejected right now meanwhile Cleveland is fighting for survival. No one cares if you go 1-15. 0-16 is a scar for the history books.


There is nobody in the NFL right now more dejected than the Browns, except maybe the 49ers after blowing it against the Jets today. They just came off their bye week against and got clocked by a struggling in state division rival. I can't see them beating Buffalo or San Diego.
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby RedLeader » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:03 am

Miller4Prez64 wrote:
Doctor wrote:I think it will. Those teams are dejected right now meanwhile Cleveland is fighting for survival. No one cares if you go 1-15. 0-16 is a scar for the history books.


There is nobody in the NFL right now more dejected than the Browns, except maybe the 49ers after blowing it against the Jets today. They just came off their bye week against and got clocked by a struggling in state division rival. I can't see them beating Buffalo or San Diego.


What happened to the Niners anyway? First minute, they're up by 14, and then I see they lose?

If only Kaep put as much work into his game as he did his political stylings.
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby MJW » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:39 am

I like them to beat the Chargers, FWIW. San Diego is playing out the string for a lame-duck coach. In freezing Cleveland, on Christmas Eve, in a game nobody on their 53 has any reason to care about, but which has huge meaning to the Browns.

Anyway...I think things will get better soon. Maybe not next year, but this last draft they did things the right way. They eschewed reaching for a quarterback, drafted for the front seven, and collected picks.

I think the smartest thing they can do is eschew reaching for a QB again this next draft. Draft Garrett or Allen #1 to join guys like Danny Shelton, Emanuel Ogbah, Carl Nassib, and Nate Orchard on that front seven. Take the BPA with the Eagles pick, too. Maybe a corner like the kid from Florida. Play D, run the ball with Crowell and Duke Johnson, and let Kessler grow. And if that doesn't work out, it'll be a better QB class in 2018 anyway.

JMHO.

And on the "sit them or start them" argument, there is no right answer. I've always been in the "sit them" camp but the truth is, some guys benefit from taking the early licks. Other guys don't. Conversely, you waste some guys by making them watch. Other guys absolutely need it. So stop looking for a "right" answer because there isn't one, and more importantly, there'd be no way to prove it if there was.
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby Phantom Phenom » Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 pm

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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby Miller4Prez64 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:34 pm

They got beat down by a Bills team in meltdown mode with a coach about to be fired. I just can't fathom how this squad will win. I hate it for those fans in Cleveland, but 0-16 is happening.
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby PrimeMinister » Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:38 pm

Miller4Prez64 wrote:They got beat down by a Bills team in meltdown mode with a coach about to be fired. I just can't fathom how this squad will win. I hate it for those fans in Cleveland, but 0-16 is happening.


I thought Lebron broke the curse.
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby Nano » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:45 pm

So, if the Cleveland Browns go winless this year, they'll achieve a level of futility that not even the 2008 Lions were. They'll become the first team since 1944 that has lost every single game they've played in a year. They went 0-4 in the preseason.
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:59 pm

Nano wrote:So, if the Cleveland Browns go winless this year, they'll achieve a level of futility that not even the 2008 Lions were. They'll become the first team since 1944 that has lost every single game they've played in a year. They went 0-4 in the preseason.


The starting QB in the Browns last victory was Johnny Manziel. In fact Manziel was the starter in 2 of their 3 wins last season (Josh McClown the other).

Very sad times for the Browns.
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby SIBucsFan » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:00 pm

Nano wrote:So, if the Cleveland Browns go winless this year, they'll achieve a level of futility that not even the 2008 Lions were. They'll become the first team since 1944 that has lost every single game they've played in a year. They went 0-4 in the preseason.



Funny how that 2008 Lions team was 4-0 during the pre-season (yes, pre-season does not matter in terms of regular season success, I know, still ironic nonetheless).
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby Bucs N Beers » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:08 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Nano wrote:So, if the Cleveland Browns go winless this year, they'll achieve a level of futility that not even the 2008 Lions were. They'll become the first team since 1944 that has lost every single game they've played in a year. They went 0-4 in the preseason.


The starting QB in the Browns last victory was Johnny Manziel. In fact Manziel was the starter in 2 of their 3 wins last season (Josh McClown the other).

Very sad times for the Browns.


God the Johnny Football era feels like so long ago...

Might be because since that win they have played Austin Davis, RG3, Josh McCown, Cody Kessler, Charlie Whitehurst, and Kevin Hogan at QB.
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby Swashy » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:46 pm

MJW wrote:I like them to beat the Chargers, FWIW. San Diego is playing out the string for a lame-duck coach. In freezing Cleveland, on Christmas Eve, in a game nobody on their 53 has any reason to care about, but which has huge meaning to the Browns.

Anyway...I think things will get better soon. Maybe not next year, but this last draft they did things the right way. They eschewed reaching for a quarterback, drafted for the front seven, and collected picks.

I think the smartest thing they can do is eschew reaching for a QB again this next draft. Draft Garrett or Allen #1 to join guys like Danny Shelton, Emanuel Ogbah, Carl Nassib, and Nate Orchard on that front seven. Take the BPA with the Eagles pick, too. Maybe a corner like the kid from Florida. Play D, run the ball with Crowell and Duke Johnson, and let Kessler grow. And if that doesn't work out, it'll be a better QB class in 2018 anyway.

JMHO.

And on the "sit them or start them" argument, there is no right answer. I've always been in the "sit them" camp but the truth is, some guys benefit from taking the early licks. Other guys don't. Conversely, you waste some guys by making them watch. Other guys absolutely need it. So stop looking for a "right" answer because there isn't one, and more importantly, there'd be no way to prove it if there was.


I completely agree with this. Unless your name is Manning, Rodgers, Brees or Brady you aren't going to win anything if the rest of your team is still lousy. Not that all the rest of the team is lousy but you get the point. I would even advocate doing what San Diego did all those years back when they traded out of the 1st overall and then select a player they want anyway like the Chargers did with Tomlinson. Trade that 1st overall for an extra draft pick along with a very good roster player. Then if you want you can be bold enough, you trade back into the 1st round and you've got yourself 3 fantastic football players in one afternoon.

I can't claim I've watched the Browns extensively but if they go 0-16 to follow a 3-13 year previously then something has gone terribly wrong that no single player is going to fix.
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby Onthebrink » Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:57 pm

Haha get those Chargers.
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby Phantom Phenom » Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:18 pm

1-15
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby sanka » Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:18 pm

Congrats to the Browns on their first win
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby Doctor » Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:22 pm

Indeed. Now it's just another forgetful bad season, dodging history. Good job browns, merry Christmas.
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby Swashy » Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:23 pm

Good on you Cleveland. No one should ever have to suffer a winless season.
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Re: Will the Cleveland Browns go winless?

Postby Bootz2004 » Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:25 pm

Congrats Cleveland. It's just a hard task to go winless
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