How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL?

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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby Doctor » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:35 am

Ken Carson wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:
This is about as clear of a case about one owner making a business decision regarding his billion dollar investment, and his unwillingness to summon the TMZ/ESPN/24-hour sports media circus upon that investment

What it is is a clear refuting of the now-defunct argument that Kaep doesn't have a job because of his play. Super Bowl winning NFL people wanted him and were told no by an owner who was afraid of public opinion.

Hell, look at Seattle's reasoning... basically Kaepernick is too good to be a backup. Their argument was that they wanted an inferior player as a backup instead of Kaepernick. Your bullshit meter should have been going all navy submarine dive with that one.

:lol:

You see kids, this is what happens when you choose to pretend the other side of the argument isn't real. You end up looking like an idiot.

Even without the activism, Kap is a roster bubble player at best. A journeyman back up who spent the last two years losing to Blaine ****ing Gabbert. There are plenty of players just like that who you can get without the activism. And let's be clear here, it's not just the controversy behind it but the flood of reports that he's more focused on it than playing ball.

What "is clear" is that if you are good enough the NFL will overlook pretty much anything. You can suck and barely make a roster, you can be good and be controversial, what you can't do is suck AND be controversial. Yes, owners are making a business decision, are you going to bring in more fans than you scare off? And guess what, if his TALENT was BETTER the answer would be YES. But it's not. So stop trying to make it seem like his play has nothing to do with it. It's 90% of the issue. Blaine. Gabbert.
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby Buc2 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:49 pm

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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:52 pm

Doctor wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:What it is is a clear refuting of the now-defunct argument that Kaep doesn't have a job because of his play. Super Bowl winning NFL people wanted him and were told no by an owner who was afraid of public opinion.

Hell, look at Seattle's reasoning... basically Kaepernick is too good to be a backup. Their argument was that they wanted an inferior player as a backup instead of Kaepernick. Your bullshit meter should have been going all navy submarine dive with that one.

:lol:

You see kids, this is what happens when you choose to pretend the other side of the argument isn't real. You end up looking like an idiot.

Even without the activism, Kap is a roster bubble player at best. A journeyman back up who spent the last two years losing to Blaine ****ing Gabbert. There are plenty of players just like that who you can get without the activism. And let's be clear here, it's not just the controversy behind it but the flood of reports that he's more focused on it than playing ball.

What "is clear" is that if you are good enough the NFL will overlook pretty much anything. You can suck and barely make a roster, you can be good and be controversial, what you can't do is suck AND be controversial. Yes, owners are making a business decision, are you going to bring in more fans than you scare off? And guess what, if his TALENT was BETTER the answer would be YES. But it's not. So stop trying to make it seem like his play has nothing to do with it. It's 90% of the issue. Blaine. Gabbert.


But Chip Kelly is racist!!!!
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby Ken Carson » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:42 pm

Doctor wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:What it is is a clear refuting of the now-defunct argument that Kaep doesn't have a job because of his play. Super Bowl winning NFL people wanted him and were told no by an owner who was afraid of public opinion.

Hell, look at Seattle's reasoning... basically Kaepernick is too good to be a backup. Their argument was that they wanted an inferior player as a backup instead of Kaepernick. Your bullshit meter should have been going all navy submarine dive with that one.

:lol:

You see kids, this is what happens when you choose to pretend the other side of the argument isn't real. You end up looking like an idiot.

Even without the activism, Kap is a roster bubble player at best. A journeyman back up who spent the last two years losing to Blaine ****ing Gabbert. There are plenty of players just like that who you can get without the activism. And let's be clear here, it's not just the controversy behind it but the flood of reports that he's more focused on it than playing ball.

What "is clear" is that if you are good enough the NFL will overlook pretty much anything. You can suck and barely make a roster, you can be good and be controversial, what you can't do is suck AND be controversial. Yes, owners are making a business decision, are you going to bring in more fans than you scare off? And guess what, if his TALENT was BETTER the answer would be YES. But it's not. So stop trying to make it seem like his play has nothing to do with it. It's 90% of the issue. Blaine. Gabbert.

Can you post for me the stat lines of Kaepernick and Gabbert from last year? I mean, Gabbert was better, obviously, since you told me so just now with periods and drama. But I'm on my phone and can't find the stats to confirm your account of things.

What I can barely make out from the stats is that one of the QBs threw more picks than TDs, had a QB rating 22 points lower than the other, and averaged less than 6 yards per completion. That must have been Kaepernick, right? Because Blaine. Gabbert.

On a serious note, save yourself the embarrassment of replying. Kaepernick is better than most backups in this league and his 'controversial' opinion is that police shouldn't kill unarmed black people, a point which he makes nonviolently. Do you think the police don't kill enough unarmed black people? Or would you prefer he protest a little more violently?

I'm generally confused by why people dislike a person who believes in a cause and raises awareness without affecting anyone else's life negatively at all. I'm even more confused at why people go through mental gymnastics inside heir own head to pretend like that weird dislike is somehow totally rational.
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby Selmon Rules » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:29 am

Ken Carson wrote:
Doctor wrote: :lol:

You see kids, this is what happens when you choose to pretend the other side of the argument isn't real. You end up looking like an idiot.

Even without the activism, Kap is a roster bubble player at best. A journeyman back up who spent the last two years losing to Blaine ****ing Gabbert. There are plenty of players just like that who you can get without the activism. And let's be clear here, it's not just the controversy behind it but the flood of reports that he's more focused on it than playing ball.

What "is clear" is that if you are good enough the NFL will overlook pretty much anything. You can suck and barely make a roster, you can be good and be controversial, what you can't do is suck AND be controversial. Yes, owners are making a business decision, are you going to bring in more fans than you scare off? And guess what, if his TALENT was BETTER the answer would be YES. But it's not. So stop trying to make it seem like his play has nothing to do with it. It's 90% of the issue. Blaine. Gabbert.

Can you post for me the stat lines of Kaepernick and Gabbert from last year? I mean, Gabbert was better, obviously, since you told me so just now with periods and drama. But I'm on my phone and can't find the stats to confirm your account of things.

What I can barely make out from the stats is that one of the QBs threw more picks than TDs, had a QB rating 22 points lower than the other, and averaged less than 6 yards per completion. That must have been Kaepernick, right? Because Blaine. Gabbert.

On a serious note, save yourself the embarrassment of replying. Kaepernick is better than most backups in this league and his 'controversial' opinion is that police shouldn't kill unarmed black people, a point which he makes nonviolently. Do you think the police don't kill enough unarmed black people? Or would you prefer he protest a little more violently?

I'm generally confused by why people dislike a person who believes in a cause and raises awareness without affecting anyone else's life negatively at all. I'm even more confused at why people go through mental gymnastics inside heir own head to pretend like that weird dislike is somehow totally rational.

I think for the most part it isn't the protesting as much as it is the manner in which he chose to protest. Speaking out against wrongs done is not a bad thing until you start badmouthing or disrespecting the law enforcement community as a whole (see Instagram post of badges of modern day police and pre-Civil War era slave catcher badges).

I think he is good enough to play in the NFL but he has the same problem Trump has, an innate inability to lay off Twitter....
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby Doctor » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:49 am

Ken Carson wrote:
Doctor wrote: :lol:

You see kids, this is what happens when you choose to pretend the other side of the argument isn't real. You end up looking like an idiot.

Even without the activism, Kap is a roster bubble player at best. A journeyman back up who spent the last two years losing to Blaine ****ing Gabbert. There are plenty of players just like that who you can get without the activism. And let's be clear here, it's not just the controversy behind it but the flood of reports that he's more focused on it than playing ball.

What "is clear" is that if you are good enough the NFL will overlook pretty much anything. You can suck and barely make a roster, you can be good and be controversial, what you can't do is suck AND be controversial. Yes, owners are making a business decision, are you going to bring in more fans than you scare off? And guess what, if his TALENT was BETTER the answer would be YES. But it's not. So stop trying to make it seem like his play has nothing to do with it. It's 90% of the issue. Blaine. Gabbert.

Can you post for me the stat lines of Kaepernick and Gabbert from last year? I mean, Gabbert was better, obviously, since you told me so just now with periods and drama. But I'm on my phone and can't find the stats to confirm your account of things.

What I can barely make out from the stats is that one of the QBs threw more picks than TDs, had a QB rating 22 points lower than the other, and averaged less than 6 yards per completion. That must have been Kaepernick, right? Because Blaine. Gabbert.

On a serious note, save yourself the embarrassment of replying. Kaepernick is better than most backups in this league and his 'controversial' opinion is that police shouldn't kill unarmed black people, a point which he makes nonviolently. Do you think the police don't kill enough unarmed black people? Or would you prefer he protest a little more violently?

I'm generally confused by why people dislike a person who believes in a cause and raises awareness without affecting anyone else's life negatively at all. I'm even more confused at why people go through mental gymnastics inside heir own head to pretend like that weird dislike is somehow totally rational.


That stat line is 2. The number of times Kap has been benched in favor of Blaine.
See, you think by making Blaine look bad you're making Kap look good. On the contrary, Blaine is bad. He's very bad. Hence the periods. And Kap couldn't even fend him off. Kap got bench in favor of Blaine by Jim Tomsula. He went on to lose the QB battle with Blaine under Chip. The fact that Blaine is keeping you off the field and- for a long time- creating talk about you even getting cut speaks volumes. So please, tell me how much Blaine sucks, you only make your case weaker.

His "controversy" isn't WHY he's doing it, but nice try. People take issue with HOW he's doing it. Many take it as disrespect for the flag, the country, and the troops. I'm personally fine with it, and I'm a veteran too. More power to him. But he doesn't live in a bubble and his chosen controversial METHOD (notice, not cause) of speaking out has rubbed some fans the wrong way. And just like any other player their good (talent that brings fans into the seats) better outweigh their bad (drama that drives away fans). Many players have had so much talent it outweighs their DUI's, murders, rapes, animal violence, etc, because at the end of the day if the talent is there fans will forgive anything. It's when the talent is NOT there that you're in trouble. When all of the sudden TOs legs wasn't worth his mouth he found himself out of the league. Or Ray Rice. And many others. And Kap has "QB Battle with Blaine Gabbert" level talent...
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:01 pm

Selmon Rules wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:Can you post for me the stat lines of Kaepernick and Gabbert from last year? I mean, Gabbert was better, obviously, since you told me so just now with periods and drama. But I'm on my phone and can't find the stats to confirm your account of things.

What I can barely make out from the stats is that one of the QBs threw more picks than TDs, had a QB rating 22 points lower than the other, and averaged less than 6 yards per completion. That must have been Kaepernick, right? Because Blaine. Gabbert.

On a serious note, save yourself the embarrassment of replying. Kaepernick is better than most backups in this league and his 'controversial' opinion is that police shouldn't kill unarmed black people, a point which he makes nonviolently. Do you think the police don't kill enough unarmed black people? Or would you prefer he protest a little more violently?

I'm generally confused by why people dislike a person who believes in a cause and raises awareness without affecting anyone else's life negatively at all. I'm even more confused at why people go through mental gymnastics inside heir own head to pretend like that weird dislike is somehow totally rational.

I think for the most part it isn't the protesting as much as it is the manner in which he chose to protest. Speaking out against wrongs done is not a bad thing until you start badmouthing or disrespecting the law enforcement community as a whole (see Instagram post of badges of modern day police and pre-Civil War era slave catcher badges).

I think he is good enough to play in the NFL but he has the same problem Trump has, an innate inability to lay off Twitter....

He has definitely done some things that aren't smart. The pig socks, the Fidel T-shirt, and a number of other things were poor choices. If he had only done something less offensive to people like Doctor like thrownig a woman onto a bed of guns or punchig one out on an elevator or cheated by taking PEDs, maybe some team would take a chance on a cancer like him.

But what is really funny to me is the lengths guys like Doctor (sorry to single out again, he's just the most recent) will go so that there is some other reason why Kaepernick is unsigned. They can't just be OK with 'Kaepernick isn't getting a shot anywhere because of his political beliefs.' It has to be 'Kaepernick isn't getting a shot anywhere because he sucks. Totally (or almost totally) unrelated to that, he has political views that make people like me hate him.' Why is that? Because, at least IMNSHO, deep down they know that it is bullshit a guy isn't getting a chance because of a nonviolent protest. It goes against everything that American freedom should provide us. But since they happen to dislike the very notion of there being a protest in the first place (many reasons, unlike others have said), the mind must rationalize away the injustice. Hence, posts about Kaepernick losing his job to Blaine Gabbert (the OPPOSITE actually happened last year) and with such flair and confidence. Almost like he is really only trying to convince himself.
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:17 pm

Doctor wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:Can you post for me the stat lines of Kaepernick and Gabbert from last year? I mean, Gabbert was better, obviously, since you told me so just now with periods and drama. But I'm on my phone and can't find the stats to confirm your account of things.

What I can barely make out from the stats is that one of the QBs threw more picks than TDs, had a QB rating 22 points lower than the other, and averaged less than 6 yards per completion. That must have been Kaepernick, right? Because Blaine. Gabbert.

On a serious note, save yourself the embarrassment of replying. Kaepernick is better than most backups in this league and his 'controversial' opinion is that police shouldn't kill unarmed black people, a point which he makes nonviolently. Do you think the police don't kill enough unarmed black people? Or would you prefer he protest a little more violently?

I'm generally confused by why people dislike a person who believes in a cause and raises awareness without affecting anyone else's life negatively at all. I'm even more confused at why people go through mental gymnastics inside heir own head to pretend like that weird dislike is somehow totally rational.


That stat line is 2. The number of times Kap has been benched in favor of Blaine.
See, you think by making Blaine look bad you're making Kap look good. On the contrary, Blaine is bad. He's very bad. Hence the periods. And Kap couldn't even fend him off. Kap got bench in favor of Blaine by Jim Tomsula. He went on to lose the QB battle with Blaine under Chip. The fact that Blaine is keeping you off the field and- for a long time- creating talk about you even getting cut speaks volumes. So please, tell me how much Blaine sucks, you only make your case weaker.

His "controversy" isn't WHY he's doing it, but nice try. People take issue with HOW he's doing it. Many take it as disrespect for the flag, the country, and the troops. I'm personally fine with it, and I'm a veteran too. More power to him. But he doesn't live in a bubble and his chosen controversial METHOD (notice, not cause) of speaking out has rubbed some fans the wrong way. And just like any other player their good (talent that brings fans into the seats) better outweigh their bad (drama that drives away fans). Many players have had so much talent it outweighs their DUI's, murders, rapes, animal violence, etc, because at the end of the day if the talent is there fans will forgive anything. It's when the talent is NOT there that you're in trouble. When all of the sudden TOs legs wasn't worth his mouth he found himself out of the league. Or Ray Rice. And many others. And Kap has "QB Battle with Blaine Gabbert" level talent...

You keep moving the goal posts. Kaepernick isn't an elite level QB, no one is arguing that. It would have taken Aaron Rodgers arm and Tom Brady's everything else to get that San Francisco team to 5 wins last season. I'm going to make a list of QBs, and I'd like you to tell me which you believe would have outperformed Kaepernick on the 49ers last year. I'll just use guys currently on an NFL roster.

Brandon Allen
Derek Anderson
Matt Barkley
CJ Beathard
Tyler Bray
Joe Callahan
Connor Cook
Dane Evans
Blaine Gabbert
Taylor Heinicke
Chad Henne
Tay's I'm Hill
Brian Hoyer
Brett Hundley
Josh Johnson
Case Keemun
Trevor Knight
Ryan's Mallett
EJ Manuel
Luke McCown
Matt McGloin
Kellen Moore
Nick Mullens
Cooper Rush
Mark Sanchez
Tom Savage
Matt Schaub
Matt Simms
Genie Smith
Drew Stanton
Joel Stave
Alex Torgersen
Dustin Vaughan
Davis Webb
Joe Webb
Brandon Weeden
Josh Woodrum
TJ Yates
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:27 pm

If Kaep wasn't an activist he'd be on an NFL roster. I say that with 95% confidence. But he wouldn't be starting anywhere and at best would be competing for a starting job on a team like the Jets (or some other team drafting top 5 next April). More than likely would be filling a Ryan Fizpatrick type of role somewhere.

But he does bring a circus with him and that was his decision. So I don't see him as some type of victim here either. He's an adult and made a decision based on his own priorities. If a team gets desperate enough to where they feel the ends would justify the means and are willing to bring the circus to town that follows Kaep these days because it will get them to the playoffs than he'll get signed. But I certainly don't blame the owners for running their business as they see fit.

If an organization like the Seahawks who have a very open minded Owner, HC, team and fanbase in addition to a scheme where Kaep would fit nicely as a back-up to Wilson doesn't sign him it should reflect what teams think of him as a football player.

Playing in the NFL is not right. Just as working at Google isn't a right either. Opinions and the decision to voice them publicly obviously has consequences.
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:50 pm

DreadNaught wrote:If an organization like the Seahawks who have a very open minded Owner, HC, team and fanbase in addition to a scheme where Kaep would fit nicely as a back-up to Wilson doesn't sign him it should reflect what teams think of him as a football player.


Interesting...

He’s a starter in this league,” Seahawks head coach Pete Carroll told reporters Friday. “We have a starter, but he is a starter in this league and I can’t imagine somebody won’t give him a chance to play.


While free agent Colin Kaepernick is still looking for a job in the NFL, Seattle Seahawks general manager John Schneider said "there's no question about it" when discussing the quarterback's dedication to playing football.

"[Colin Kaepernick] is committed to football," Schneider said on NFL Network Monday, per Ian Rapoport of NFL.com.


“My original position was I thought that the situation last year with him taking a knee didn’t have anything to do with [his unemployment] and after viewing what's going on, I got to take that back," Seahwaks wide receiver Doug Baldwin said during his Saturday press conference. "I definitely think that the league, the owners are trying to send a message of staying between the lines."
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:40 pm

DreadNaught wrote:But he does bring a circus with him and that was his decision... If a team gets desperate enough to where they feel the ends would justify the means and are willing to bring the circus to town that follows Kaep these days because it will get them to the playoffs than he'll get signed. But I certainly don't blame the owners for running their business as they see fit.


So first question to this... what circus, exactly? He's already said he is going to stand for the anthem this season (announced in March while still with the 49ers), so that's out. Is the circus the $2 million he gave of his own money? Or the circus of his teammates giving him the Len Eshmont Award, which, according to the 49ers, goes to the player who "best exemplifies the inspirational and courageous play of Len Eshmont, an original member of the 1946 49ers team."

So, the circus he brings is charitable contributions and the support of his teammates, all while standing during the national anthem? Or did you mean something else?

Second question... how absolute is your feeling hat owners can run their teams however they wish? If the reason an owner had in not signing Kaepernick was 'I want to show them all that players better stay in line with my sensibilitiesand the sensibilities of my fans or else they are not welcome here,' is that really OK?
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby Deuce » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:48 pm

Ken Carson wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:But he does bring a circus with him and that was his decision... If a team gets desperate enough to where they feel the ends would justify the means and are willing to bring the circus to town that follows Kaep these days because it will get them to the playoffs than he'll get signed. But I certainly don't blame the owners for running their business as they see fit.


So first question to this... what circus, exactly? He's already said he is going to stand for the anthem this season (announced in March while still with the 49ers), so that's out. Is the circus the $2 million he gave of his own money? Or the circus of his teammates giving him the Len Eshmont Award, which, according to the 49ers, goes to the player who "best exemplifies the inspirational and courageous play of Len Eshmont, an original member of the 1946 49ers team."

So, the circus he brings is charitable contributions and the support of his teammates, all while standing during the national anthem? Or did you mean something else?

Second question... how absolute is your feeling hat owners can run their teams however they wish? If the reason an owner had in not signing Kaepernick was 'I want to show them all that players better stay in line with my sensibilitiesand the sensibilities of my fans or else they are not welcome here,' is that really OK?


Don't play dumb. A quick Google search of Kaepernick shows results about rallies, petitions, and activists. How many rallies were there for Cutler?
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:20 pm

Deuce wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:
So first question to this... what circus, exactly? He's already said he is going to stand for the anthem this season (announced in March while still with the 49ers), so that's out. Is the circus the $2 million he gave of his own money? Or the circus of his teammates giving him the Len Eshmont Award, which, according to the 49ers, goes to the player who "best exemplifies the inspirational and courageous play of Len Eshmont, an original member of the 1946 49ers team."

So, the circus he brings is charitable contributions and the support of his teammates, all while standing during the national anthem? Or did you mean something else?

Second question... how absolute is your feeling hat owners can run their teams however they wish? If the reason an owner had in not signing Kaepernick was 'I want to show them all that players better stay in line with my sensibilitiesand the sensibilities of my fans or else they are not welcome here,' is that really OK?


Don't play dumb. A quick Google search of Kaepernick shows results about rallies, petitions, and activists. How many rallies were there for Cutler?

The only thing I'm seeing on Google are people having rallies to support him and protest the Bears and Jets. Want to link what you are talking about?

Furthermore, even Doctor and Dread have admitted they have no problem with the subject that's Kaepernick is protesting. Do you think he is wrong for protesting the police treatment of black people? If not, do you think a reasonable person could be against the protesting of he way police treat black people? If not, do you think NFL owners are doing the right thing by appeasing unreasonable people by not signing Kaepernick?
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:31 pm

Ken Carson wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:But he does bring a circus with him and that was his decision... If a team gets desperate enough to where they feel the ends would justify the means and are willing to bring the circus to town that follows Kaep these days because it will get them to the playoffs than he'll get signed. But I certainly don't blame the owners for running their business as they see fit.


So first question to this... what circus, exactly? He's already said he is going to stand for the anthem this season (announced in March while still with the 49ers), so that's out. Is the circus the $2 million he gave of his own money? Or the circus of his teammates giving him the Len Eshmont Award, which, according to the 49ers, goes to the player who "best exemplifies the inspirational and courageous play of Len Eshmont, an original member of the 1946 49ers team."

So, the circus he brings is charitable contributions and the support of his teammates, all while standing during the national anthem? Or did you mean something else?

Second question... how absolute is your feeling hat owners can run their teams however they wish? If the reason an owner had in not signing Kaepernick was 'I want to show them all that players better stay in line with my sensibilitiesand the sensibilities of my fans or else they are not welcome here,' is that really OK?


There is a large planned protest at the NFL office in support of him (which is dumb as the NFL headquarters has little to nothing to do with this) but...

To your second point, it's absolutely ok. Why isn't it? If an owner disagrees with his stance, which many do, they should be able to choose not to hire/pay him to be on their team. If an owner feels a big enough backlash from fans to sign him, they should be able to use that as a factor as well. What is the argument against that?

It all plays a role in weighing if he's right for a team. It's the same reason a lot of teams didn't want Tebow as a back up. Part of it was his on field ability(or inability) but the other was because it brought attention that the team didn't want. That's their right. There are a lot of teams, like Seattle, where bringing in Kaep could be a detriment to their locker room/team. Why risk that on a back up?

His stance is protest is really polarizing. There are a ton of people who are angry about it, right or wrong. It seems many owners don't want to fool with that.
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:31 pm

Ken Carson wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:But he does bring a circus with him and that was his decision... If a team gets desperate enough to where they feel the ends would justify the means and are willing to bring the circus to town that follows Kaep these days because it will get them to the playoffs than he'll get signed. But I certainly don't blame the owners for running their business as they see fit.


So first question to this... what circus, exactly?

Second question... how absolute is your feeling hat owners can run their teams however they wish? If the reason an owner had in not signing Kaepernick was 'I want to show them all that players better stay in line with my sensibilitiesand the sensibilities of my fans or else they are not welcome here,' is that really OK?


The circus is the media and excessive coverage that now follows Kaep and how that could be potentially distracting to the team. Similar to the circus that follows Tebow (although for different reasons). Is that really worth it for back-up QB? It's not even so much about the specific issue(s) he's promoting at this point in time and more about what occurred in last season. Especially since he's said he'll stop kneeling for the anthem. Although he should probably stop calling NFL owners and cops slave owners if he honestly wants to be employed in league reliant on fan support and corporate sponsorship. If Ryan Fitzpatrick or Jay Cutler were wearing MAGA hats and speaking at conservative rallies they wouldn't be on an NFL roster either b/c the their value as players isn't worth the baggage.

Owners have rules they have to abide by. But they are business owners at the end of the day responsible to fans and sponsors with the ultimate objective of winning football games (which leads to more fans and sponsors). Assume you're an NFL owner and you tell me how Kaep fits into the equation as it pertains to winning games, energizing the fanbase, or attracting sponsors? You're making some straw man in that post that isn't based in fact or reality.

Kaep made his decisions and is living with the results. If a team signs than good for him. But spare me the pathetic victim/apologist narrative when Kaep does stuff like; call cops pigs and slave owners, put his own activism over honoring our country for 90 seconds, and depict Ray Lewis and Steve Bisciotti as a House ni**a and Slave owner while the Ravens were looking into possibly signing him. He made those decisions, not the NFL owners, not the fans, and not the companies that partner with the league. He created the situation he's in with his own decisions so let's stop blaming everyone else.
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:15 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:
So first question to this... what circus, exactly? He's already said he is going to stand for the anthem this season (announced in March while still with the 49ers), so that's out. Is the circus the $2 million he gave of his own money? Or the circus of his teammates giving him the Len Eshmont Award, which, according to the 49ers, goes to the player who "best exemplifies the inspirational and courageous play of Len Eshmont, an original member of the 1946 49ers team."

So, the circus he brings is charitable contributions and the support of his teammates, all while standing during the national anthem? Or did you mean something else?

Second question... how absolute is your feeling hat owners can run their teams however they wish? If the reason an owner had in not signing Kaepernick was 'I want to show them all that players better stay in line with my sensibilitiesand the sensibilities of my fans or else they are not welcome here,' is that really OK?


There is a large planned protest at the NFL office in support of him (which is dumb as the NFL headquarters has little to nothing to do with this) but...

To your second point, it's absolutely ok. Why isn't it? If an owner disagrees with his stance, which many do, they should be able to choose not to hire/pay him to be on their team. If an owner feels a big enough backlash from fans to sign him, they should be able to use that as a factor as well. What is the argument against that?

It all plays a role in weighing if he's right for a team. It's the same reason a lot of teams didn't want Tebow as a back up. Part of it was his on field ability(or inability) but the other was because it brought attention that the team didn't want. That's their right. There are a lot of teams, like Seattle, where bringing in Kaep could be a detriment to their locker room/team. Why risk that on a back up?

His stance is protest is really polarizing. There are a ton of people who are angry about it, right or wrong. It seems many owners don't want to fool with that.


And now we are back to this argument. I'm good with agreeing that it isn't about whether he is good enough to play on the NFL. Look at the list I posted and it's clear that Kaepernick is better than more than half the quarterbacks on rosters right now. In some cases he is a LOT better than the guys cashing checks. So then we end up agreeing that the reason he doesn't have a job is because the teams don't like his political protest.

That begs two questions. One, what is actually wrong with what he did? Like beyond triggering some snowflakes who want to live in an America where the police don't mistreat minorities or where people don't protest during the national anthem. Yeah, you can find some fault with what he has done, but really, name his sin.

The second question is, is it reasonable for someone to be angry enough about his protest to demand their team not sign him? In a league where Greg Hardy got a second chance, Adrian Peterson got a second chance, Joe Mixon was drafted in the second round, are football fans really such little bitches that some socks and kneeling triggered them this badly?

Again, I think most people know deep down it's bullshit. That's why they rationalize it by saying he stinks or he wants too much money or that he brings drama. An inspection of any of those facts finds evidence to the contrary. Hell, people used to peddle the lie that he was just trying to get attention by kneeling, ignoring the $2 million he donated to charitable organizations.

But it's way more convenient to just say 'it's a function of his value as a player vs the headache he brings.' Take the next step and analyze whether people who think he is a headache actually have a point. And if they don't, then the owners are straight cowards for choosing to leave him on the street.
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:33 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:
So first question to this... what circus, exactly?

Second question... how absolute is your feeling hat owners can run their teams however they wish? If the reason an owner had in not signing Kaepernick was 'I want to show them all that players better stay in line with my sensibilitiesand the sensibilities of my fans or else they are not welcome here,' is that really OK?


The circus is the media and excessive coverage that now follows Kaep and how that could be potentially distracting to the team. Similar to the circus that follows Tebow (although for different reasons). Is that really worth it for back-up QB? It's not even so much about the specific issue(s) he's promoting at this point in time and more about what occurred in last season. Especially since he's said he'll stop kneeling for the anthem. Although he should probably stop calling NFL owners and cops slave owners if he honestly wants to be employed in league reliant on fan support and corporate sponsorship. If Ryan Fitzpatrick or Jay Cutler were wearing MAGA hats and speaking at conservative rallies they wouldn't be on an NFL roster either b/c the their value as players isn't worth the baggage.

Owners have rules they have to abide by. But they are business owners at the end of the day responsible to fans and sponsors with the ultimate objective of winning football games (which leads to more fans and sponsors). Assume you're an NFL owner and you tell me how Kaep fits into the equation as it pertains to winning games, energizing the fanbase, or attracting sponsors? You're making some straw man in that post that isn't based in fact or reality.

Kaep made his decisions and is living with the results. If a team signs than good for him. But spare me the pathetic victim/apologist narrative when Kaep does stuff like; call cops pigs and slave owners, put his own activism over honoring our country for 90 seconds, and depict Ray Lewis and Steve Bisciotti as a House ni**a and Slave owner while the Ravens were looking into possibly signing him. He made those decisions, not the NFL owners, not the fans, and not the companies that partner with the league. He created the situation he's in with his own decisions so let's stop blaming everyone else.

The argument to sign Kaepernick is really easy. He is better than most backups in the league and could be a starter for a few. If I care about having the best chance to win football games, it's in my best interest to have the best players available to back up the most important position in team sports.

The argument against signing him is whether I would lose the locker room, which is possible but hugely unrealistic considering the 49ers locker room voted him to win an award for courage and inspiration. And in the case of the locker room, is actually have a larger reason to not sign admitted Trump supporter and accused quitter Jay Cutler, since its very likely my locker room is predominately black players.

Another reason not to sign him would be sponsors, but having my QB go down in Week 2 and losing 12 games because my backup is Matt McGloin will also cost me sponsor dollars. Who wants to sponsor a bad team at a premium cost?

The final reason is because of loss of fan support. Again, another way to lose fan support is to lose my QB for the year and tank a season. So I can lose fans either way.

If you take emotion about protests, flags, socks, etc out of the equation, it's easy to do the math.
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby Deuce » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:38 pm

Ken Carson wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
The circus is the media and excessive coverage that now follows Kaep and how that could be potentially distracting to the team. Similar to the circus that follows Tebow (although for different reasons). Is that really worth it for back-up QB? It's not even so much about the specific issue(s) he's promoting at this point in time and more about what occurred in last season. Especially since he's said he'll stop kneeling for the anthem. Although he should probably stop calling NFL owners and cops slave owners if he honestly wants to be employed in league reliant on fan support and corporate sponsorship. If Ryan Fitzpatrick or Jay Cutler were wearing MAGA hats and speaking at conservative rallies they wouldn't be on an NFL roster either b/c the their value as players isn't worth the baggage.

Owners have rules they have to abide by. But they are business owners at the end of the day responsible to fans and sponsors with the ultimate objective of winning football games (which leads to more fans and sponsors). Assume you're an NFL owner and you tell me how Kaep fits into the equation as it pertains to winning games, energizing the fanbase, or attracting sponsors? You're making some straw man in that post that isn't based in fact or reality.

Kaep made his decisions and is living with the results. If a team signs than good for him. But spare me the pathetic victim/apologist narrative when Kaep does stuff like; call cops pigs and slave owners, put his own activism over honoring our country for 90 seconds, and depict Ray Lewis and Steve Bisciotti as a House ni**a and Slave owner while the Ravens were looking into possibly signing him. He made those decisions, not the NFL owners, not the fans, and not the companies that partner with the league. He created the situation he's in with his own decisions so let's stop blaming everyone else.

The argument to sign Kaepernick is really easy. He is better than most backups in the league and could be a starter for a few. If I care about having the best chance to win football games, it's in my best interest to have the best players available to back up the most important position in team sports.

The argument against signing him is whether I would lose the locker room, which is possible but hugely unrealistic considering the 49ers locker room voted him to win an award for courage and inspiration. And in the case of the locker room, is actually have a larger reason to not sign admitted Trump supporter and accused quitter Jay Cutler, since its very likely my locker room is predominately black players.

Another reason not to sign him would be sponsors, but having my QB go down in Week 2 and losing 12 games because my backup is Matt McGloin will also cost me sponsor dollars. Who wants to sponsor a bad team at a premium cost?

The final reason is because of loss of fan support. Again, another way to lose fan support is to lose my QB for the year and tank a season. So I can lose fans either way.

If you take emotion about protests, flags, socks, etc out of the equation, it's easy to do the math.


So, Ken, in your opinion, why has Kaepernick not been signed?
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby Alpha » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:04 pm

Jesus Christ, it's hard to read Skanka's ****.

Is English your 2nd language...or do you just ****ing suck at it?
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:08 pm

Deuce wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:The argument to sign Kaepernick is really easy. He is better than most backups in the league and could be a starter for a few. If I care about having the best chance to win football games, it's in my best interest to have the best players available to back up the most important position in team sports.

The argument against signing him is whether I would lose the locker room, which is possible but hugely unrealistic considering the 49ers locker room voted him to win an award for courage and inspiration. And in the case of the locker room, is actually have a larger reason to not sign admitted Trump supporter and accused quitter Jay Cutler, since its very likely my locker room is predominately black players.

Another reason not to sign him would be sponsors, but having my QB go down in Week 2 and losing 12 games because my backup is Matt McGloin will also cost me sponsor dollars. Who wants to sponsor a bad team at a premium cost?

The final reason is because of loss of fan support. Again, another way to lose fan support is to lose my QB for the year and tank a season. So I can lose fans either way.

If you take emotion about protests, flags, socks, etc out of the equation, it's easy to do the math.


So, Ken, in your opinion, why has Kaepernick not been signed?

Because the owners are cowards who would cut off their noses to spite their face. It's about control. Where do you think the no doo-rags, no celebration, no writing on your cleats rules come from? The owners don't want players to do anything but donate their bodies and brain matter to Sunday, making sure maximum money flows into their billion dollar corporations.

I know multiple people have said they're good with the owners running their business this way, but when you weigh what they are asking players to do (risk serious injury, brain damage, take a needle just to be able to play, etc) for non-guaranteed contracts, it's pretty shitty that they also demand total conformity. And it's weird to me that a group of people who are on the employee side of the employee-owner relationship is so adamantly on the side of ownership in this case. If you were risking your health and future at work everyday and then you became unhireable because you started each workday by refusing to say the pledge allegiance since you didn't agree with the war in Iraq. Oh and your workplace had this start to each day for no apparent reason other than your boss was making a few extra dollars from the government by making you say it (yes, the NFL recently stopped CHARGING the military for national anthem flyovers). That would be pretty messed up.

You guys have the ownership line memorized so well, but it's obvious you haven't bothered to look at t from the side of the employee.
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:26 pm

Those poor professional athletes being subjected to rules.

It's like slavery all over again. Except with unions, gold chains, and lamborghinis.
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:39 pm

DreadNaught wrote:Those poor professional athletes being subjected to rules.

It's like slavery all over again. Except with unions, gold chains, and lamborghinis.

Weak.
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby Deuce » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:39 am

Ken Carson wrote:
Deuce wrote:
So, Ken, in your opinion, why has Kaepernick not been signed?

Because the owners are cowards who would cut off their noses to spite their face. It's about control. Where do you think the no doo-rags, no celebration, no writing on your cleats rules come from? The owners don't want players to do anything but donate their bodies and brain matter to Sunday, making sure maximum money flows into their billion dollar corporations.

I know multiple people have said they're good with the owners running their business this way, but when you weigh what they are asking players to do (risk serious injury, brain damage, take a needle just to be able to play, etc) for non-guaranteed contracts, it's pretty shitty that they also demand total conformity. And it's weird to me that a group of people who are on the employee side of the employee-owner relationship is so adamantly on the side of ownership in this case. If you were risking your health and future at work everyday and then you became unhireable because you started each workday by refusing to say the pledge allegiance since you didn't agree with the war in Iraq. Oh and your workplace had this start to each day for no apparent reason other than your boss was making a few extra dollars from the government by making you say it (yes, the NFL recently stopped CHARGING the military for national anthem flyovers). That would be pretty messed up.

You guys have the ownership line memorized so well, but it's obvious you haven't bothered to look at t from the side of the employee.


Well, Teitan kind of stole my thunder in the other thread but Martellus Bennett, Marcus Peters, Kenny Stills (those are the names I can remember, there are many more), they all protested. Why do they still have jobs?
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby Ken Carson » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:08 am

Deuce wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:Because the owners are cowards who would cut off their noses to spite their face. It's about control. Where do you think the no doo-rags, no celebration, no writing on your cleats rules come from? The owners don't want players to do anything but donate their bodies and brain matter to Sunday, making sure maximum money flows into their billion dollar corporations.

I know multiple people have said they're good with the owners running their business this way, but when you weigh what they are asking players to do (risk serious injury, brain damage, take a needle just to be able to play, etc) for non-guaranteed contracts, it's pretty shitty that they also demand total conformity. And it's weird to me that a group of people who are on the employee side of the employee-owner relationship is so adamantly on the side of ownership in this case. If you were risking your health and future at work everyday and then you became unhireable because you started each workday by refusing to say the pledge allegiance since you didn't agree with the war in Iraq. Oh and your workplace had this start to each day for no apparent reason other than your boss was making a few extra dollars from the government by making you say it (yes, the NFL recently stopped CHARGING the military for national anthem flyovers). That would be pretty messed up.

You guys have the ownership line memorized so well, but it's obvious you haven't bothered to look at t from the side of the employee.


Well, Teitan kind of stole my thunder in the other thread but Martellus Bennett, Marcus Peters, Kenny Stills (those are the names I can remember, there are many more), they all protested. Why do they still have jobs?

Which guys did it all season long? Pretty sure every guy you mentioned there did something one time and never again.
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:26 am

Ken Carson wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
The circus is the media and excessive coverage that now follows Kaep and how that could be potentially distracting to the team. Similar to the circus that follows Tebow (although for different reasons). Is that really worth it for back-up QB? It's not even so much about the specific issue(s) he's promoting at this point in time and more about what occurred in last season. Especially since he's said he'll stop kneeling for the anthem. Although he should probably stop calling NFL owners and cops slave owners if he honestly wants to be employed in league reliant on fan support and corporate sponsorship. If Ryan Fitzpatrick or Jay Cutler were wearing MAGA hats and speaking at conservative rallies they wouldn't be on an NFL roster either b/c the their value as players isn't worth the baggage.

Owners have rules they have to abide by. But they are business owners at the end of the day responsible to fans and sponsors with the ultimate objective of winning football games (which leads to more fans and sponsors). Assume you're an NFL owner and you tell me how Kaep fits into the equation as it pertains to winning games, energizing the fanbase, or attracting sponsors? You're making some straw man in that post that isn't based in fact or reality.

Kaep made his decisions and is living with the results. If a team signs than good for him. But spare me the pathetic victim/apologist narrative when Kaep does stuff like; call cops pigs and slave owners, put his own activism over honoring our country for 90 seconds, and depict Ray Lewis and Steve Bisciotti as a House ni**a and Slave owner while the Ravens were looking into possibly signing him. He made those decisions, not the NFL owners, not the fans, and not the companies that partner with the league. He created the situation he's in with his own decisions so let's stop blaming everyone else.

The argument to sign Kaepernick is really easy. He is better than most backups in the league and could be a starter for a few. If I care about having the best chance to win football games, it's in my best interest to have the best players available to back up the most important position in team sports.

The argument against signing him is whether I would lose the locker room, which is possible but hugely unrealistic considering the 49ers locker room voted him to win an award for courage and inspiration. And in the case of the locker room, is actually have a larger reason to not sign admitted Trump supporter and accused quitter Jay Cutler, since its very likely my locker room is predominately black players.

Another reason not to sign him would be sponsors, but having my QB go down in Week 2 and losing 12 games because my backup is Matt McGloin will also cost me sponsor dollars. Who wants to sponsor a bad team at a premium cost?

The final reason is because of loss of fan support. Again, another way to lose fan support is to lose my QB for the year and tank a season. So I can lose fans either way.

If you take emotion about protests, flags, socks, etc out of the equation, it's easy to do the math.


What evidence do have that Kaep would win football games if forced onto the field as a back-up QB when he's only had one season with a winning record? And that was 4 years ago when the league had not adjusted to the read option and the 49ers had a great defense.

Other than the Seahawks, I don't see a single team in the NFL where Kaep would have come close to a winning record. He went 8-8 the year after his one winning season when the 49ers still had a top 5 TOTAL defense and Top 10 scoring defense and Harbaugh as HC. Is he a better QB now than he was then? Will he find a better situation in 2017 than he was in back in 2014 with that 49er team?

Is he good enough to be on an NFL roster? Sure... But if he's playing than that team is likely drafting his replacement next April regardless. So it's not difficult to understand why teams don't see the upside. I agree the math is easy.
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:34 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:The argument to sign Kaepernick is really easy. He is better than most backups in the league and could be a starter for a few. If I care about having the best chance to win football games, it's in my best interest to have the best players available to back up the most important position in team sports.

The argument against signing him is whether I would lose the locker room, which is possible but hugely unrealistic considering the 49ers locker room voted him to win an award for courage and inspiration. And in the case of the locker room, is actually have a larger reason to not sign admitted Trump supporter and accused quitter Jay Cutler, since its very likely my locker room is predominately black players.

Another reason not to sign him would be sponsors, but having my QB go down in Week 2 and losing 12 games because my backup is Matt McGloin will also cost me sponsor dollars. Who wants to sponsor a bad team at a premium cost?

The final reason is because of loss of fan support. Again, another way to lose fan support is to lose my QB for the year and tank a season. So I can lose fans either way.

If you take emotion about protests, flags, socks, etc out of the equation, it's easy to do the math.


What evidence do have that Kaep would win football games if forced onto the field as a back-up QB when he's only had one season with a winning record? And that was 4 years ago when the league had not adjusted to the read option and the 49ers had a great defense.

Other than the Seahawks, I don't see a single team in the NFL where Kaep would have come close to a winning record. He went 8-8 the year after his one winning season when the 49ers still had a top 5 TOTAL defense and Top 10 scoring defense and Harbaugh as HC. Is he a better QB now than he was then? Will he find a better situation in 2017 than he was in back in 2014 with that 49er team?

Is he good enough to be on an NFL roster? Sure... But if he's playing than that team is likely drafting his replacement next April regardless. So it's not difficult to understand why teams don't see the upside. I agree the math is easy.


There's an argument to be made for not believing Kaep can be a viable backup but you made a poor effort at one. You begged a question that has an obvious answer but then you proceed to disqualify said year to fit your agenda. You also forgot to mention the year he actually DID come off the bench, go 5-2 and get his team to the Super Bowl. How convenient. I'm not advocating for him, but you're not making any sense what so ever.



And if we're going that route, how many winning seasons has a Ryan Fitzpatrick had?
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:41 am

Not many.. Which is why I've said repeatedly that Kaep in the same category/caliber of QB. I'm not against Kape being on a team, I'd actually prefer it so it wouldn't be talked about. But it's not a big deal either way and I understand why he isn't based on the player he is coupled with the baggage/controversy/distractions/polarization that comes with him at this point. Why deal with it for a back-up who's not going to win many games for you unless you're one of a handful of teams with a great defense.
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:44 am

DreadNaught wrote:Not many.. Which is why I've said repeatedly that Kaep in the same category/caliber of QB. I'm not against Kape being on a team, I'd actually prefer it so it wouldn't be talked about. But it's not a big deal either way and I understand why he isn't based on the player he is coupled with the baggage/controversy/distractions/polarization that comes with him at this point. Why deal with it for a back-up who's not going to win many games for you unless you're one of a handful of teams with a great defense.


You clearly didn't see his games back then if you think defense is the only reason they won. Now you're just talking out of your ass.
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby Doctor » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:51 am

Ken Carson wrote:
Deuce wrote:
Well, Teitan kind of stole my thunder in the other thread but Martellus Bennett, Marcus Peters, Kenny Stills (those are the names I can remember, there are many more), they all protested. Why do they still have jobs?

Which guys did it all season long? Pretty sure every guy you mentioned there did something one time and never again.

Um... Kenny Stills and Michael Thomas (team capt) did it all year long and even in the playoffs so.... And he said he'll probably keep doing it.... Oh, and Stills got a $32M contract extension and won the Dolphins’ Nat Moore Community Service Award...

Difference is:
1) Stills talent on the field puts up points
2) Stills doesn't say stupid "house nigga" stuff to other players
3) Stills focus on football has never come into question
4) Stills backs up everything he says and actually VOTED
5) Stills also didn't do this dumb ****:
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Re: How isJay Cutler still a starting Quarterback in the NFL

Postby Deuce » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:52 am

Ken Carson wrote:Which guys did it all season long? Pretty sure every guy you mentioned there did something one time and never again.


Not true.

Had to do some research here but these players protested multiple weeks:

Eric Reid, Antoine Bethea, Eli Harold- at least 2 games
Kenny Stills, Michael Thomas, Arian Foster (retired) and Jelani Jenkins- at least 2 games
Brandon Marshall (the LB)- All of September and October

All of these guys have jobs.

So now what's the argument? He did it more? I think that's pretty weak. Fact is, he brings a bigger circus and is less talented than all of the players listed above.
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