Thank you Jameis Winston

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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby sonofg » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:30 pm

Cheb wrote:Winston's issue isn't accuracy. He can be plenty accurate. The second TD to Brate last week, for instance, was in a very tight window.

Winston's issue is forcing the ball to his preplay favorite instead of to the open man.


But it's also accuracy. Although he fits some of those throws in there, his ball placement is wildly erratic (i.e., inaccurate). Which of his issues is most pressing to solve (if possible) is another discussion.
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby real bucs fan » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:32 pm

Cheb wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:
Except he's inaccurate and is slow getting rid of the ball.

The reality is, Koetters system suits him perfectly, they just need the run game. And Koetter gets on his ass.

Winston aint a WC QB.


Winston's issue isn't accuracy. He can be plenty accurate. The second TD to Brate last week, for instance, was in a very tight window.

Winston's issue is forcing the ball to his preplay favorite instead of to the open man.


Let me ask you this:

Do you believe Winstons skillset to be a better fit in Koetters 4 vertical offence or Grudens West Coast offence?
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby Bootz2004 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:39 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
Cheb wrote:
Winston's issue isn't accuracy. He can be plenty accurate. The second TD to Brate last week, for instance, was in a very tight window.

Winston's issue is forcing the ball to his preplay favorite instead of to the open man.


Let me ask you this:

Do you believe Winstons skillset to be a better fit in Koetters 4 vertical offence or Grudens West Coast offence?


A QB with his skill can play in most systems. He's doing pretty well in this system.
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby real bucs fan » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:52 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:
Let me ask you this:

Do you believe Winstons skillset to be a better fit in Koetters 4 vertical offence or Grudens West Coast offence?


A QB with his skill can play in most systems. He's doing pretty well in this system.


I don't disagree at all. As well we have yet to really see Winston in this system with a decent run game since his rookie year. This is why I'd prefer to stick with the Winston/Koetter combo and just focus the offseason on getting a run game...

But does Winston really strike you as a Gruden QB?
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby Mex-Buc » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:58 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
A QB with his skill can play in most systems. He's doing pretty well in this system.


I don't disagree at all. As well we have yet to really see Winston in this system with a decent run game since his rookie year. This is why I'd prefer to stick with the Winston/Koetter combo and just focus the offseason on getting a run game...

But does Winston really strike you as a Gruden QB?


This was my main question on my post, Gruden doesn't seem like the guy who will tolerate those kinds of plays, look at how hard he was on Simms, yeah, he took us to the playoffs on 2005 (Basically that defense and thanks to him we didn't drafted A Rodgers :banghead: ), but he was not a Gruden pick, everyone knows McCay was the one who pick him up.

With Gruden being out of the game this long, will he be ready to take up on a challenge to exploit Winston's potential?
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby Bootz2004 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:00 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
A QB with his skill can play in most systems. He's doing pretty well in this system.


I don't disagree at all. As well we have yet to really see Winston in this system with a decent run game since his rookie year. This is why I'd prefer to stick with the Winston/Koetter combo and just focus the offseason on getting a run game...

But does Winston really strike you as a Gruden QB?


He'd do great in Gruden's system if he ran the same one he ran 10 years ago. It's not that Jameis can't throw timing routes and make quick reads. This offense he's in simply doesn't provide for many of those and isn't designed that way. I keep seeing "dink & dunk" when people refer to Gruden's system. That's complete fiction. Gruden's offense utilizes quick timing routes designed to get skills position players in space. Drags, crossers, slants, posts, pivots, screens. I've said this time and time again, if you want an example of Jon Gruden's offense, watch the Packers, Patriots, Chiefs, Eagles, Dolphins play offense. Jameis is smart, accurate, athletic enough, can make quick decisions. He's a Gruden QB.
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby real bucs fan » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:04 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:
I don't disagree at all. As well we have yet to really see Winston in this system with a decent run game since his rookie year. This is why I'd prefer to stick with the Winston/Koetter combo and just focus the offseason on getting a run game...

But does Winston really strike you as a Gruden QB?


He'd do great in Gruden's system if he ran the same one he ran 10 years ago. It's not that Jameis can't throw timing routes and make quick reads. This offense he's in simply doesn't provide for many of those and isn't designed that way. I keep seeing "dink & dunk" when people refer to Gruden's system. That's complete fiction. Gruden's offense utilizes quick timing routes designed to get skills position players in space. Drags, crossers, slants, posts, pivots, screens. I've said this time and time again, if you want an example of Jon Gruden's offense, watch the Packers, Patriots, Chiefs, Eagles, Dolphins play offense. Jameis is smart, accurate, athletic enough, can make quick decisions. He's a Gruden QB.


Winstons greatest skill is throwing those intermediate route fastballs. I actually think he's custom built for the system he's in now. We just haven't seen him simultaneous have weapons and a run game...
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby Bootz2004 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:09 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
He'd do great in Gruden's system if he ran the same one he ran 10 years ago. It's not that Jameis can't throw timing routes and make quick reads. This offense he's in simply doesn't provide for many of those and isn't designed that way. I keep seeing "dink & dunk" when people refer to Gruden's system. That's complete fiction. Gruden's offense utilizes quick timing routes designed to get skills position players in space. Drags, crossers, slants, posts, pivots, screens. I've said this time and time again, if you want an example of Jon Gruden's offense, watch the Packers, Patriots, Chiefs, Eagles, Dolphins play offense. Jameis is smart, accurate, athletic enough, can make quick decisions. He's a Gruden QB.


Winstons greatest skill is throwing those intermediate route fastballs. I actually think he's custom built for the system he's in now. We just haven't seen him simultaneous have weapons and a run game...


Intermediate routes is where's he's struggling. That's where most of his misfires and interceptions come. Sunday we saw him make great decisions with the football and allow his receivers to make plays after the catch on shorter quicker routes. He's got to improve on his intermediate throws.
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby mdb1958 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:18 pm

No QB should lay down forty yards worth of sacks, you gotta be smart enough to see what your faced with and deal with it. No quarterback did it last week, no matter what draft number they were.
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby BUCCABEER » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:40 pm

mdb1958 wrote:No QB should lay down forty yards worth of sacks, you gotta be smart enough to see what your faced with and deal with it. No quarterback did it last week, no matter what draft number they were.


You meant Offensive Line of course......No Offensive Line should give up 40 yards worth of sacks.
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby mdb1958 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:05 pm

BUCCABEER wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:No QB should lay down forty yards worth of sacks, you gotta be smart enough to see what your faced with and deal with it. No quarterback did it last week, no matter what draft number they were.


You meant Offensive Line of course......No Offensive Line should give up 40 yards worth of sacks.



No I didnt, it didnt take long for Winston to have a clue about how much duress he was going to face. With him it dont matter if your playing a run and dink game or not - he still thinks he has to go for the longer developing pass play time and time again.
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby mdb1958 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:10 pm

I'm waiting for Cheb to do the offensive line review.
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby Cheb » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:43 pm

mdb1958 wrote:I'm waiting for Cheb to do the offensive line review.


This is on my to-do list for tomorrow. NFL Rewind has been posting the coaches' film faster this year.

From what I recall, there were some basic communication issues, but we will see in detail on the morrow.
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby MJW » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:38 am

mdb1958 wrote:
BUCCABEER wrote:
You meant Offensive Line of course......No Offensive Line should give up 40 yards worth of sacks.



No I didnt, it didnt take long for Winston to have a clue about how much duress he was going to face. With him it dont matter if your playing a run and dink game or not - he still thinks he has to go for the longer developing pass play time and time again.


This. That was a very Winston-y game. If his primary isn't open, or he can't throw him open, he instantly goes into scramble drill. I'll wait for what Cheb has to say about the OL play, but it sure looked like about half of those sacks were avoidable.
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby sanka » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:03 am

Doctor wrote:
Mex-Buc wrote:Good read here about Jameis regressing season:

https://www.floridafootballinsiders.com ... versation/

I did not wanted to create another thread about Winston, so I prefer to just leave it here, man.. what a ****ing turn of events was this thread, just reading at the first pages, and to see where we stand right now.

Not even with Freeman I had these high hopes from a QB ever, I really thought we would explode this year into scene and make it further into the playoffs with Winston having an MVP type of year.

He already has two different HC's during his 3 years in the league, and looks like he will have just another one by seasons end.

If Gruden comes in, will he really make the difference in Winston? I just can't see Winston in a Dink and Dunk WC system from Chucky.. I don't know about you all, but if Gruden comes back, wouldn't he lobby to the Glazers to go after a veteran like he's used to and pay some millions to Cousins instead of keeping Winston?

I wouldn't even imagine that a day would come where I would question Winston's place here in the Bucs organization, it's just painful to watch this QB not learn from his mistakes and keep doing the same **** every ****ing game, very frustrating, if this is a meltdown, then yes, call it that, but there's no other way to hope something positive from this season honestly.


Absolutely worthless read. Nothing there of substance except a couple of stat lines. Some people are absolutely ridiculous when it comes to QB expectations. There's always some great young QB lighting it up, making everyone else jealous. It's just rarely the same QB. One season it would be Andrew Luck, or Blake Bortles with his 4400yd year, or Russell Wilson, or Dak, or Carr. Then these guys fall off and have a bad season and people are talking about moving on from them, because "hey look, that team has a great young QB". The fact that there were heavy talks about the Seahawks letting Wilson go in 2015 was just ridiculous. Dak and Carr has fallen off and media darlings, on to the next one. There's always a next one. But that's not how you develop a QB or build a franchise. Let the fair weathers flock to Wentz and Watson, they'll be on someone elses knob next year.

Winston is the best QB this franchise has ever had. Clear as day. Plenty of things he needs to improve on, I've been one to be very critical of Winston. But to suggest moving on is beyond foolish.

You said it all....I am glad you notice the trend in the NFL. :mrgreen:

And what a useless article..nitpicking on Winston turnovers. :lol:

Peyton Manning
1998 – 28 INTs and 3 fumbles
1999 – 15 INTs and 6 fumbles
2000 – 15 INTs and 5 fumbles
2001 – 23 INTs and 7 fumbles

Wentz, Goff just have better teams than Winston, thus, better success.
"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:26 am

MJW wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:

No I didnt, it didnt take long for Winston to have a clue about how much duress he was going to face. With him it dont matter if your playing a run and dink game or not - he still thinks he has to go for the longer developing pass play time and time again.


This. That was a very Winston-y game. If his primary isn't open, or he can't throw him open, he instantly goes into scramble drill. I'll wait for what Cheb has to say about the OL play, but it sure looked like about half of those sacks were avoidable.


I'd love to see his play awareness evolve to where he just takes off like he's fired out of a cannon - gets his 5 or whatever yards, jumps up commanding his offense to assemble for the next play. Just look highly in control and on a mission. And I'm not talking about a 2 min drill, I want to see him look at certain defensive players - make eye contact - in a kinda mess with their head way. They need to feel like - **** who is he going after next.
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby theBKwhopper » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:44 am

sanka wrote:
Doctor wrote:
Absolutely worthless read. Nothing there of substance except a couple of stat lines. Some people are absolutely ridiculous when it comes to QB expectations. There's always some great young QB lighting it up, making everyone else jealous. It's just rarely the same QB. One season it would be Andrew Luck, or Blake Bortles with his 4400yd year, or Russell Wilson, or Dak, or Carr. Then these guys fall off and have a bad season and people are talking about moving on from them, because "hey look, that team has a great young QB". The fact that there were heavy talks about the Seahawks letting Wilson go in 2015 was just ridiculous. Dak and Carr has fallen off and media darlings, on to the next one. There's always a next one. But that's not how you develop a QB or build a franchise. Let the fair weathers flock to Wentz and Watson, they'll be on someone elses knob next year.

Winston is the best QB this franchise has ever had. Clear as day. Plenty of things he needs to improve on, I've been one to be very critical of Winston. But to suggest moving on is beyond foolish.

You said it all....I am glad you notice the trend in the NFL. :mrgreen:

And what a useless article..nitpicking on Winston turnovers. :lol:

Peyton Manning
1998 – 28 INTs and 3 fumbles
1999 – 15 INTs and 6 fumbles
2000 – 15 INTs and 5 fumbles
2001 – 23 INTs and 7 fumbles

Wentz, Goff just have better teams than Winston, thus, better success.

Agreed. We need to build a Defense(specifically DE and CB) and an Oline. Those are our top two priorities.
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:56 am

I figured out what I want from Winston - psychological maturity.
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby MJW » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:02 am

mdb1958 wrote:I figured out what I want from Winston - psychological maturity.


I want to see him go through his progressions.
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:31 am

MJW wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:I figured out what I want from Winston - psychological maturity.


I want to see him go through his progressions.

Form adolescence to adulthood?
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby MJW » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:47 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
MJW wrote:
I want to see him go through his progressions.

Form adolescence to adulthood?


"Progressions" sounds like a Kids In the Hall sketch.
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby PrimeMinister » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:15 pm

mdb1958 wrote:
MJW wrote:
This. That was a very Winston-y game. If his primary isn't open, or he can't throw him open, he instantly goes into scramble drill. I'll wait for what Cheb has to say about the OL play, but it sure looked like about half of those sacks were avoidable.


I'd love to see his play awareness evolve to where he just takes off like he's fired out of a cannon - gets his 5 or whatever yards, jumps up commanding his offense to assemble for the next play. Just look highly in control and on a mission. And I'm not talking about a 2 min drill, I want to see him look at certain defensive players - make eye contact - in a kinda mess with their head way. They need to feel like - **** who is he going after next.


You want a movie.
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby Doctor » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:33 pm

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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby sonofg » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:43 pm

Jay Cutler through first 40 games: 9938 yds, 62 TD, 39 INT.

Stuff like this means little without context...
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby Doctor » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:52 pm

The context is simple- talk about moving on from Winston at this stage is moronic. Just like talks about Cutler then. There's a reason Bronco fans were livid when they traded him away and rightfully so. Now, did Cutler go on to just give up on football in Chicago? Sure. Perhaps he never loved the game that much. But no one has ever questioned Cutler's talent or potential, just his heart. There's no question on Winston on that front.

Do you honestly think we're ever going to have a QB have a better 40 game start here in Tampa? If this isn't good enough for fans to believe they have something, nothing will be.
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby sonofg » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:10 pm

But that talk is not based as much on stats as it is on skill set (for lack of a better word). Of course I hope Winston puts it all together and becomes great. I root for the Bucs. Winston being good is good for the Bucs. I'm just sceptical that he will improve on his particular deficiencies (accuracy, decision making). In his third year as a professional he keeps saying he's learned this and that, but keeps making the same mistakes. I think there's a real possibility that this is who he is as a player and that he'll never take that next step.
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby sanka » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:24 pm

sonofg wrote:But that talk is not based as much on stats as it is on skill set (for lack of a better word). Of course I hope Winston puts it all together and becomes great. I root for the Bucs. Winston being good is good for the Bucs. I'm just sceptical that he will improve on his particular deficiencies (accuracy, decision making). In his third year as a professional he keeps saying he's learned this and that, but keeps making the same mistakes. I think there's a real possibility that this is who he is as a player and that he'll never take that next step.

He will improve when he gets a better running game and a good oline...look at Dak I don't think he is better than Winston but he successfully because of what I mentioned above. Plus add a good defense and you will have an overall good football team like Goff and Wentz have. Dak doesn't have that defense.

You can nitpick and critic him all you want....this team is going nowhere without those changes. Its the same blah blah bitching ....its tiring.

Get him a good coach too.
"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby Doctor » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:42 am

No doubt he will get better with a better OL and run game.... but don't make it seem like he doesn't have **** he needs to work on. Come on bro...
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby mdb1958 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:23 am

MJW wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:I figured out what I want from Winston - psychological maturity.


I want to see him go through his progressions.



Can I have a write up on "game planning with progressions". Somewhere along the line Winston's internal clock has to say "4 seconds and I still got the ball, something bad is going to happen".
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Re: Thank you Jameis Winston

Postby mdb1958 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:31 am

PrimeMinister wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:
I'd love to see his play awareness evolve to where he just takes off like he's fired out of a cannon - gets his 5 or whatever yards, jumps up commanding his offense to assemble for the next play. Just look highly in control and on a mission. And I'm not talking about a 2 min drill, I want to see him look at certain defensive players - make eye contact - in a kinda mess with their head way. They need to feel like - **** who is he going after next.


You want a movie.



We will call it Winston and his quest for the perfect demeanor. The next movie can be how to stalk your prey for sixty minutes. Third one can be "Winston" The American Sniper.
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