Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

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Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby Crocaneers » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:07 pm

Get ready for ChuckyTV

Don't cancel your HBO yet !!

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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby PetePierson » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:38 pm

It is going to be awesome.
Can't wait for the PMI "Chuck" comments.
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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby beardmcdoug » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:00 pm

Oh hell yeah. Can’t wait.
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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby Snake » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:38 pm

Not going to pretend that I won’t watch and thoroughly enjoy every second of this.

2019 Gruden is really no different than Buccaneers Gruden. Out of control ego and insatiable desire for attention. The same guy who had 3/4s of the locker room hating him and a reputation as being two-faced.
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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby MJW » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:24 pm

Snake wrote:Not going to pretend that I won’t watch and thoroughly enjoy every second of this.

2019 Gruden is really no different than Buccaneers Gruden. Out of control ego and insatiable desire for attention. The same guy who had 3/4s of the locker room hating him and a reputation as being two-faced.


I'm in the minority here, but I wasn't hoping for the Raiders for this reason. Between his time here and MNF, I've heard enough from Gruden to last a lifetime. He always reminded me of a yip-yapping little dog. It's forgivable when it involves lifting a Lombardi. The rest of the time it's rubbing alcohol on the sunburn of my brain.

My one hope - and it's slim - is that we get a semi-honest look at how he and Mayock interact with one another.
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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby Caradoc » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:56 pm

I was agnostic. But now that it pissed off two of the biggest douchebags here, I am all in favor.
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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby MJW » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:04 am

Caradoc wrote:I was agnostic. But now that it pissed off two of the biggest douchebags here, I am all in favor.


That must be a crappy way for your brain to work. I'm sorry.
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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby Deuce » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:13 am

Gruden, Mayock, Antonio Brown, Richie Incognito, Vontaze Burfict, Lamarcus Joyner...

This could be the most entertaining season yet.
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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby Swashy » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:54 am

I was ok with the idea of him coming here. It might've helped Winston because no one in his offense runs more than a 20 yard route (like ever) on a given play and that also meant no more over throws and fewer 40 yard bombs when better plays were available. He'd be forced to cut down on his mistakes almost organically based on the structure of the offense. But I'm never gonna miss Gruden's insatiable need to be the smartest man in the room at all times and his purposely flamboyant play calls. The average call is wordy for a reason. So make it easy to say and remember. You're throwing the ball not building the space shuttle.


But


No one:


Jon Gruden: Zebra Trojan R West Right Slot X Short 200 Jet Smoke X Choice



Meanwhile on Tom Brady's wrist band: G Brown RT 74 HOSS X-Follow


I know this is probably an inappropriate comparison but it's done to show why people have such a problem with his playbook. Your athletes aren't all gonna have 120+ IQ's and communications degrees.


As much as I bag on Winston I would have never faulted him for struggling. Hell.... Fitz woud probably be our starter now
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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby Deuce » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:10 am

Swashy wrote:I was ok with the idea of him coming here. It might've helped Winston because no one in his offense runs more than a 20 yard route (like ever) on a given play and that also meant no more over throws and fewer 40 yard bombs when better plays were available. He'd be forced to cut down on his mistakes almost organically based on the structure of the offense. But I'm never gonna miss Gruden's insatiable need to be the smartest man in the room at all times and his purposely flamboyant play calls. The average call is wordy for a reason. So make it easy to say and remember. You're throwing the ball not building the space shuttle.


But


No one:


Jon Gruden: Zebra Trojan R West Right Slot X Short 200 Jet Smoke X Choice



Meanwhile on Tom Brady's wrist band: G Brown RT 74 HOSS X-Follow


I know this is probably an inappropriate comparison but it's done to show why people have such a problem with his playbook. Your athletes aren't all gonna have 120+ IQ's and communications degrees.


As much as I bag on Winston I would have never faulted him for struggling. Hell.... Fitz woud probably be our starter now


Ah yes, the "Winston is dumb" narrative. Haven't seen that one in a while.
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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby Swashy » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:34 am

Deuce wrote:
Swashy wrote:I was ok with the idea of him coming here. It might've helped Winston because no one in his offense runs more than a 20 yard route (like ever) on a given play and that also meant no more over throws and fewer 40 yard bombs when better plays were available. He'd be forced to cut down on his mistakes almost organically based on the structure of the offense. But I'm never gonna miss Gruden's insatiable need to be the smartest man in the room at all times and his purposely flamboyant play calls. The average call is wordy for a reason. So make it easy to say and remember. You're throwing the ball not building the space shuttle.


But


No one:


Jon Gruden: Zebra Trojan R West Right Slot X Short 200 Jet Smoke X Choice



Meanwhile on Tom Brady's wrist band: G Brown RT 74 HOSS X-Follow


I know this is probably an inappropriate comparison but it's done to show why people have such a problem with his playbook. Your athletes aren't all gonna have 120+ IQ's and communications degrees.


As much as I bag on Winston I would have never faulted him for struggling. Hell.... Fitz woud probably be our starter now


Ah yes, the "Winston is dumb" narrative. Haven't seen that one in a while.


It's no longer narrative. I mentioned as far back as the Seattle @ Tampa game in 2016 that I'd like to see him improve on fundamental decision making such as NOT throwing 30+ yards to Evans into double coverage on 2nd and 5 at your own 40 during a 0-0 game that isn't even 10 minutes old. If you have Brate open for 7 yards take it! But next thing you know someone drops the next pass and we punt. This is an example but we see it all the time.

As for Jon Gruden's playbook, it would have NEVER had Evans going deep. I think the longest plays we ever had in his tenure was JJ hauling ass vs Philadelphia in the NFCCG and Garcia finding Galloway up the middle on a short route but he had space upfield and sprinted all the way to the endzone.

Let me make it clear.... I DON'T want to be right about my worries of Winston. I hope to God the light comes on and we win a Super Bowl. But as it stands I don't see it and am remarking as much. I don't believe he can get over his "I'm gonna make a BIG play" mentality and use it effectively. I feel like he only makes that pass to Brate 7 yards down field because there's no other choice



Late edit: I was wrong it was @KC that I am referring to. Winston played well but was trying too hard for the big play and I found it unnecessary. I said I would rather him make plays that are there instead of trying for his own. To this day he still won't do it
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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby Deuce » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:27 am

Swashy wrote:
Deuce wrote:
Ah yes, the "Winston is dumb" narrative. Haven't seen that one in a while.


It's no longer narrative. I mentioned as far back as the Seattle @ Tampa game in 2016 that I'd like to see him improve on fundamental decision making such as NOT throwing 30+ yards to Evans into double coverage on 2nd and 5 at your own 40 during a 0-0 game that isn't even 10 minutes old. If you have Brate open for 7 yards take it! But next thing you know someone drops the next pass and we punt. This is an example but we see it all the time.

As for Jon Gruden's playbook, it would have NEVER had Evans going deep. I think the longest plays we ever had in his tenure was JJ hauling ass vs Philadelphia in the NFCCG and Garcia finding Galloway up the middle on a short route but he had space upfield and sprinted all the way to the endzone.

Let me make it clear.... I DON'T want to be right about my worries of Winston. I hope to God the light comes on and we win a Super Bowl. But as it stands I don't see it and am remarking as much. I don't believe he can get over his "I'm gonna make a BIG play" mentality and use it effectively. I feel like he only makes that pass to Brate 7 yards down field because there's no other choice



Late edit: I was wrong it was @KC that I am referring to. Winston played well but was trying too hard for the big play and I found it unnecessary. I said I would rather him make plays that are there instead of trying for his own. To this day he still won't do it


The sense I got from your post was that you doubted Winston's ability to pick up the verbiage in Gruden's offense. Especially since you mentioned in the beginning that Gruden's system seemed to fit him better as a player.
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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby Swashy » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:05 am

Deuce wrote:
Swashy wrote:
It's no longer narrative. I mentioned as far back as the Seattle @ Tampa game in 2016 that I'd like to see him improve on fundamental decision making such as NOT throwing 30+ yards to Evans into double coverage on 2nd and 5 at your own 40 during a 0-0 game that isn't even 10 minutes old. If you have Brate open for 7 yards take it! But next thing you know someone drops the next pass and we punt. This is an example but we see it all the time.

As for Jon Gruden's playbook, it would have NEVER had Evans going deep. I think the longest plays we ever had in his tenure was JJ hauling ass vs Philadelphia in the NFCCG and Garcia finding Galloway up the middle on a short route but he had space upfield and sprinted all the way to the endzone.

Let me make it clear.... I DON'T want to be right about my worries of Winston. I hope to God the light comes on and we win a Super Bowl. But as it stands I don't see it and am remarking as much. I don't believe he can get over his "I'm gonna make a BIG play" mentality and use it effectively. I feel like he only makes that pass to Brate 7 yards down field because there's no other choice



Late edit: I was wrong it was @KC that I am referring to. Winston played well but was trying too hard for the big play and I found it unnecessary. I said I would rather him make plays that are there instead of trying for his own. To this day he still won't do it


The sense I got from your post was that you doubted Winston's ability to pick up the verbiage in Gruden's offense. Especially since you mentioned in the beginning that Gruden's system seemed to fit him better as a player.


I don't have any doubt he can learn it and do it no different than anyone who came before him. But I also see he'd be at home practicing the verbage, memorizing it and maybe even testing himself. But at some point he would think "Oh my God that was just (whatever small amount)..." and spending the bulk of a few days trying to figure out what is the best way to learn while still pacing himself. But that's not just Winston. Thats so many players who have struggled with his system. It's not because these players are stupid. Look at Gruden's old Raiders playbook from 98. It's exactly what you'd expect but it's like the inner workings of "A beautiful mind" If Winston struggled with a Gruden playbook that is NOT his fault man. Your players need to be on level with the coach and Gruden doesn't level himself to anyone. It's like a stereotypical climb the mountain to meet the guru thing.

I don't know for sure about what my IQ actually is because I loathe "If A is B but B is also C does that therefore conclude that A=C?" Questions on aptitude tests because I find them tedious, boring and uninvested in answering them (chalk that up to my ADD right?) But its always scored higher than average. Based on a test I took in Psych in college my score said "MENSA candidate" I call bullshit... I think I'm a good test taker because God knows I have 10+ years of FCAT to train me. I am NOT a MENSA candidate. ADD people can just be a couple ticks above average if they use it right.

But I took a solid look at that playbook and said "How much smarter are these players than me to actually understand this? I guess if you have nothing else to do... Clearly this is from a man that does nothing else"


For Winston his work ethic and desire would be his saving grace.
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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby PetePierson » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:19 am

Deuce wrote:
Swashy wrote:I was ok with the idea of him coming here. It might've helped Winston because no one in his offense runs more than a 20 yard route (like ever) on a given play and that also meant no more over throws and fewer 40 yard bombs when better plays were available. He'd be forced to cut down on his mistakes almost organically based on the structure of the offense. But I'm never gonna miss Gruden's insatiable need to be the smartest man in the room at all times and his purposely flamboyant play calls. The average call is wordy for a reason. So make it easy to say and remember. You're throwing the ball not building the space shuttle.


But


No one:


Jon Gruden: Zebra Trojan R West Right Slot X Short 200 Jet Smoke X Choice



Meanwhile on Tom Brady's wrist band: G Brown RT 74 HOSS X-Follow


I know this is probably an inappropriate comparison but it's done to show why people have such a problem with his playbook. Your athletes aren't all gonna have 120+ IQ's and communications degrees.


As much as I bag on Winston I would have never faulted him for struggling. Hell.... Fitz woud probably be our starter now


Ah yes, the "Winston is dumb" narrative. Haven't seen that one in a while.


He’s not? Rapey does appear to have a low football acumen. But if you think he can split the atom; knock yourself out.
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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby Deuce » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:43 am

PetePierson wrote:
Deuce wrote:
Ah yes, the "Winston is dumb" narrative. Haven't seen that one in a while.


He’s not? Rapey does appear to have a low football acumen. But if you think he can split the atom; knock yourself out.


His Wonderlic score was 27. He's not Ryan Fitzpatrick but that was the same or higher than guys like Flacco, Palmer, Roethlisberger, Prescott, Mahomes, Favre, Newton, Carr (Gruden's current QB). Russell Wilson, Peyton Manning, and Brees all scored 28. As far as football acumen, he's been drawing up plays and defenses since grade school.

Does he have poor impulse control? Sure. Is he dumb? No.
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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby PetePierson » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:26 pm

noun: acumen
the ability to make good judgments and quick decisions, typically in a particular domain.


He makes bad decisions both on and off the field. But, no need to turn this into yet another Winston thread.
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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby Deuce » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:42 pm

PetePierson wrote:noun: acumen
the ability to make good judgments and quick decisions, typically in a particular domain.


He makes bad decisions both on and off the field. But, no need to turn this into yet another Winston thread.


Good point, we don't need another Winston thread.

But you did imply that he was dumb (He's not?) and talk about splitting an atom (usually refers to a comment on intelligence, not football acumen), so excuse my response.
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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby MJW » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:04 am

I remember reading that Rich Gannon said it takes like 3 or 4 years to master Gruden's offense.

That's abject idiocy in a league where Baker Mayfield can come into the NFL after playing in a goofball shotgun college offense, line up for the Cleveland Browns as a rookie, have his (offensive-minded) head coach fired midseason, and operate at a Pro Bowl level.

Now, that's an old quote. So maybe Gruden has mellowed with the Y-Tiger-Zebra-Banana-X-Jet-92-X-Choice stuff. But I doubt it.
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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:25 am

MJW wrote:I remember reading that Rich Gannon said it takes like 3 or 4 years to master Gruden's offense.

That's abject idiocy in a league where Baker Mayfield can come into the NFL after playing in a goofball shotgun college offense, line up for the Cleveland Browns as a rookie, have his (offensive-minded) head coach fired midseason, and operate at a Pro Bowl level.

Now, that's an old quote. So maybe Gruden has mellowed with the Y-Tiger-Zebra-Banana-X-Jet-92-X-Choice stuff. But I doubt it.

It just takes Rich Gannon 3 years.

I'm a dummy on the couch and I get the gist of what gru is doing when he calls a play.

He calls formation, protection, and the route of each receiver in order from first to last read. The quarterback just has to understand it. I fugure if my dumb ass can figure out the format, an NFL QB can figure out all the routes over the course of a training camp.
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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby MJW » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:39 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
MJW wrote:I remember reading that Rich Gannon said it takes like 3 or 4 years to master Gruden's offense.

That's abject idiocy in a league where Baker Mayfield can come into the NFL after playing in a goofball shotgun college offense, line up for the Cleveland Browns as a rookie, have his (offensive-minded) head coach fired midseason, and operate at a Pro Bowl level.

Now, that's an old quote. So maybe Gruden has mellowed with the Y-Tiger-Zebra-Banana-X-Jet-92-X-Choice stuff. But I doubt it.

It just takes Rich Gannon 3 years.

I'm a dummy on the couch and I get the gist of what gru is doing when he calls a play.

He calls formation, protection, and the route of each receiver in order from first to last read. The quarterback just has to understand it. I fugure if my dumb ass can figure out the format, an NFL QB can figure out all the routes over the course of a training camp.


I never considered that Rich Gannon might just be a stupid person.
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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:19 am

MJW wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:It just takes Rich Gannon 3 years.

I'm a dummy on the couch and I get the gist of what gru is doing when he calls a play.

He calls formation, protection, and the route of each receiver in order from first to last read. The quarterback just has to understand it. I fugure if my dumb ass can figure out the format, an NFL QB can figure out all the routes over the course of a training camp.


I never considered that Rich Gannon might just be a stupid person.

I'm sure it's more complicated than I'm saying. That just appears to be the fundamentals of the offense.

The "genius" of it is that he can call a play and change any route he wants without trying to find a play with that particular route on it.
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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby Swashy » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:54 am

MJW wrote:I remember reading that Rich Gannon said it takes like 3 or 4 years to master Gruden's offense.

That's abject idiocy in a league where Baker Mayfield can come into the NFL after playing in a goofball shotgun college offense, line up for the Cleveland Browns as a rookie, have his (offensive-minded) head coach fired midseason, and operate at a Pro Bowl level.

Now, that's an old quote. So maybe Gruden has mellowed with the Y-Tiger-Zebra-Banana-X-Jet-92-X-Choice stuff. But I doubt it.


There's no way in God's creation he's mellowed out.

Fella had like 8 years to sit in a press box and watch football and then go home, think about more football, get into a film room and hatch up probably another 200 pages of "White Right Tight Bravo 16 To X Choice Quickie X Jet Sweep" Gruden's problem is he probably is an actual genius with like a 140 IQ. The "Mad Scientist" stigma can be unfair to certain individuals but it's also unfair due to accuracy. The eccentricity, the obsession, the compulsive need to tinker with what is already there and hatching some more and the overall erudite nature of his playbook tells you all you gotta know about him. If we need any more proof we can all watch Derek Carr get frustrated some more on the sidelines. It's almost a shame he went into football. He's the kind of mind who discovers unknown physics correlations or how some protein chain is linked to a certain cancer.

All said I wish him and the Raiders the best
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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby Swashy » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:05 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
MJW wrote:
I never considered that Rich Gannon might just be a stupid person.

I'm sure it's more complicated than I'm saying. That just appears to be the fundamentals of the offense.

The "genius" of it is that he can call a play and change any route he wants without trying to find a play with that particular route on it.


To be fair you're on the right track. His playbook is laced in pre established foundation that players should already know. The problem is that the plays are excessively long and difficult to say and memorize and matched only by the number of routes and blocking schemes. He sacrifices brevity for the sake of versatility and that so much is going on in a given play. Gannon is correct in his assessment because that's a playbook that probably took 2 years to write.

Gru's not the kind of coach or OC that'll give you a play with an easy nickname to remember like "Philly Special" you better remember every jet, spider, choice, zebra and banana on the way. Me personally.... I'd be chosing alcoholic beverages i.e Brandy, Morgan and Bourbon instead of Philly Special
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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby Cheb » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:52 pm

Sure, the versatility is great, but the end-user has a miserable experience trying to blunder their way through the antiquated interface. If it takes dozens of hours for a novice to master a product, something has gone very wrong on the design end.

Gruden's offense is a case study in overengineering.
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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby MJW » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:59 pm

Cheb wrote:Sure, the versatility is great, but the end-user has a miserable experience trying to blunder their way through the antiquated interface. If it takes dozens of hours for a novice to master a product, something has gone very wrong on the design end.

Gruden's offense is a case study in overengineering.


I love this comparison. It's perfect. You could probably compare every scheme to a piece of tech or an OS.
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Re: Hard Knocks 2019 : Raiders

Postby Cheb » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:28 pm

MJW wrote:
Cheb wrote:Sure, the versatility is great, but the end-user has a miserable experience trying to blunder their way through the antiquated interface. If it takes dozens of hours for a novice to master a product, something has gone very wrong on the design end.

Gruden's offense is a case study in overengineering.


I love this comparison. It's perfect. You could probably compare every scheme to a piece of tech or an OS.


Why thanks.

I spend many of my waking hours either fixing engineering problems or teaching football systems. It makes sense to me that one discipline bleeds into the other.
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