Run. The. Table.

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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby IchabodCrane84 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:18 pm

I hate to interrupt this interlude, but Bootz has a point. Now whether he failed to articulate it or others have failed to acknowledge it I leave you all to bitch about for the next 7 pages.

However, what players in our past have we missed out on that would have made us better this season or future seasons? Obviously great players have been drafted before us and after us. No argument there, but I distinctly remember losing out on Joe Thomas and Calvin Johnson, but neither of those players even sniffed a Super Bowl. I remember hearing Bowers and Spence were possible overall #1 draft picks before their issues and we potentially got steals, yet we didn't. I remember finding gems like Kwon and Beckwith in later rounds. I remember kind of losing the last game of the season just so we could draft Winston, and yet here we are 3-6.

I can ramble on about what ifs and the Browns drafting and paradoxes too, but point is there's no guarantees, deal with the draft when the draft gets here.

Oh and how the hell do you tell a team to lose? How do you justify that? To the fans, coaches, players? How do you not have guys go out there and not give 100%. Isn't that how guys get hurt? How do you kill a man's desire to compete, and if you can how does that man ever respect you again?

Finally, how is that if Dirk Koetter loses the locker room and enough games he should be fired, but yet we should lose more games for better draft position?
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby RedLeader » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:14 pm

Some people have too much time. Lol.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Caradoc » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:37 pm

IchabodCrane84 wrote:I hate to interrupt this interlude, but Bootz has a point. Now whether he failed to articulate it or others have failed to acknowledge it I leave you all to bitch about for the next 7 pages.

However, what players in our past have we missed out on that would have made us better this season or future seasons? Obviously great players have been drafted before us and after us. No argument there, but I distinctly remember losing out on Joe Thomas and Calvin Johnson, but neither of those players even sniffed a Super Bowl. I remember hearing Bowers and Spence were possible overall #1 draft picks before their issues and we potentially got steals, yet we didn't. I remember finding gems like Kwon and Beckwith in later rounds. I remember kind of losing the last game of the season just so we could draft Winston, and yet here we are 3-6.

I can ramble on about what ifs and the Browns drafting and paradoxes too, but point is there's no guarantees, deal with the draft when the draft gets here.

Oh and how the hell do you tell a team to lose? How do you justify that? To the fans, coaches, players? How do you not have guys go out there and not give 100%. Isn't that how guys get hurt? How do you kill a man's desire to compete, and if you can how does that man ever respect you again?

Finally, how is that if Dirk Koetter loses the locker room and enough games he should be fired, but yet we should lose more games for better draft position?


Meh, you can't play the if/what game with every player because their team has or hasn't won. Or do your really think this wouldn't be a better team with Joe Thomas on it? People use this year with OJ Howard as "proof" position doesn't matter. How about last year?
1 1 Los Angeles Rams Jared Goff QB California Pac-12 from Tennessee [R1 - 1]
1 2 Philadelphia Eagles Carson Wentz QB North Dakota State MVFC from Cleveland [R1 - 2]

1 3 San Diego Chargers Joey Bosa DE Ohio State Big Ten
1 4 Dallas Cowboys Ezekiel Elliott † RB Ohio State Big Ten
1 5 Jacksonville Jaguars Jalen Ramsey CB Florida State ACC
1 6 Baltimore Ravens Ronnie Stanley OT Notre Dame Ind. (FBS)
1 7 San Francisco 49ers DeForest Buckner DE Oregon Pac-12
1 8 Tennessee Titans Jack Conklin OT Michigan State Big Ten from Miami via Philadelphia and Cleveland [R1 - 3]
1 9 Chicago Bears Leonard Floyd OLB Georgia SEC from Tampa Bay [R1 - 4]
1 10 New York Giants Eli Apple CB Ohio State Big Ten

How many of those guys would you rather have than VH3?

I'm not saying a team should tank for position - that's a soul sucking endeavor that leads to more losing IMO. But it is undeniable that, all things being equal, a higher pick will generally net you a better player. Yet Bootz seems to think it can be denied. His argument isn't that "you shouldn't tank", it's "you shouldn't tank because draft position means nothing".
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Bootz2004 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:44 pm

Caradoc wrote: Yet Bootz seems to think it can be denied. His argument isn't that "you shouldn't tank", it's "you shouldn't tank because draft position means nothing".


You idiots love putting words in my mouth. Show me where I said this, kiddo. I'll wait.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Sammich » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:47 pm

Sorry I couldn't get back to you sooner Bootz, but I had stuff that needed doing. As to the question if OJ Howard was a shitty pick for us. My answer would have to be yes. From everything I've seen he is a great young man. He's intelligent, a good player, and comes from a winning program. He's everything you could want.

The problem is the position he plays. Tight end generally isn't considered a high value position (probably why he slipped in the first place) and we already had a good one. This team's woes have nothing to do with a lack of receiving options and everything to do with poor line play on both sides and lousy coverage. While I admit this draft wasn't loaded with great oline talent, there were some excellent pass rushers and a corner that will likely make the probowl as a rookie that we missed out on.

Unless you would like to argue that a TE2 is more important to a team's success than pass rushers and cover guys. I'd be willing to bet we would have gotten more mileage out of a guard. OJ is a great player, but he was a shitty pick for us.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Doctor » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:03 am

Hey guys.... so yeah, running the table.... and you know... football stuff... Lets get back to that.

Sammich wrote:Sorry I couldn't get back to you sooner Bootz, but I had stuff that needed doing. As to the question if OJ Howard was a shitty pick for us. My answer would have to be yes. From everything I've seen he is a great young man. He's intelligent, a good player, and comes from a winning program. He's everything you could want.

The problem is the position he plays. Tight end generally isn't considered a high value position (probably why he slipped in the first place) and we already had a good one. This team's woes have nothing to do with a lack of receiving options and everything to do with poor line play on both sides and lousy coverage. While I admit this draft wasn't loaded with great oline talent, there were some excellent pass rushers and a corner that will likely make the probowl as a rookie that we missed out on.

Unless you would like to argue that a TE2 is more important to a team's success than pass rushers and cover guys. I'd be willing to bet we would have gotten more mileage out of a guard. OJ is a great player, but he was a shitty pick for us.

Your first problem is that you are grading him as a TE2. TE are notoriously slow to develop, even the all time greats like Winslow, Sharpe, Gates, Witten, and GOAT Tony G had around 35 catches and 400 yards their rookies years. That's just the way it is. I'm not saying Howard is one of those, but we drafted him to be and it's too early to tell. If he is, you are nuts to think him a shitty pick. We can fix the OL and the coverage, and when we do we will have a possible all-world TE.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Alpha » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:53 am

Kress wrote:Go back to your corner. And stay there. You know that you will get crushed here. You want to avoid (like you do) by going personal and talking about other people's pathetic personal lives? Ha!

The front you are putting up is cute. Nice bravado. It's a respect thing, I get it, but you should know when you have already lost. That realization will do you well in the future.

You will not win this. You can't win this. That fact sucks for you and your manhood. I get the concept. It really must suck for you. But seriously... It just is what it is.

But bail now. Bail hard.

Otherwise we go to the big guns. You don't want that.

I know who you are and what you say. You know the same about me, or at least enough because I've said plenty publicly here, even despite your claimed lack of knowledge or time to look at, read, or comprehend ****. You could surmise the rest if you wish, or spend 2 minutes on google if you persist in claiming that you don't know a goddamned thing. Just look at the U.S. Supreme Court docket, ass. Or the Florida Supreme Court's. Or any of the 5 Florida DCA's. Or the Federal 11th circuit. Whatever. Your choice. I have just been a large part of a lot of things that directly affect your life. I know that you have the time and internet access to see this. Look at your aforementioned history here to self-prove that fact. You are not "too busy" with your awesome life to deal with a message board and researching anything. We've established this.

But again, you don't want that. Don't start that fight. Go pretend that you are a nurse because It gives you some sort of message board sympathy by claiming you saved someone. On a message board, mind you. And verifiably false because no person with your name holds a registered nursing license.

But let's not go there. It will not end well for you.

FYI, I still like you. But if you push......


Aww, Christ...do I need to go fish more condoms out of his old man's barber shop again? Granted...they were bootleg, low-class condoms but ****...they were free, after all...
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Kress » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:02 am

Never tried one. They did look colorful, so that's nice.

But solid haircut. I didn't understand why he came at the front of my head with clippers, because I really don't have much going on up there. I'm 43, Irish, am fair/fine haired and balding to boot. Just no need. But the overall result was good, so whatever.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Sammich » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:31 am

Doctor wrote:Hey guys.... so yeah, running the table.... and you know... football stuff... Lets get back to that.

Sammich wrote:Sorry I couldn't get back to you sooner Bootz, but I had stuff that needed doing. As to the question if OJ Howard was a shitty pick for us. My answer would have to be yes. From everything I've seen he is a great young man. He's intelligent, a good player, and comes from a winning program. He's everything you could want.

The problem is the position he plays. Tight end generally isn't considered a high value position (probably why he slipped in the first place) and we already had a good one. This team's woes have nothing to do with a lack of receiving options and everything to do with poor line play on both sides and lousy coverage. While I admit this draft wasn't loaded with great oline talent, there were some excellent pass rushers and a corner that will likely make the probowl as a rookie that we missed out on.

Unless you would like to argue that a TE2 is more important to a team's success than pass rushers and cover guys. I'd be willing to bet we would have gotten more mileage out of a guard. OJ is a great player, but he was a shitty pick for us.

Your first problem is that you are grading him as a TE2. TE are notoriously slow to develop, even the all time greats like Winslow, Sharpe, Gates, Witten, and GOAT Tony G had around 35 catches and 400 yards their rookies years. That's just the way it is. I'm not saying Howard is one of those, but we drafted him to be and it's too early to tell. If he is, you are nuts to think him a shitty pick. We can fix the OL and the coverage, and when we do we will have a possible all-world TE.



I see what you're getting at. I also have no problem with OJ's stats. I said he was a fine player and I meant it. My point is that we are/will get poor return due to already having a good young TE on the roster. I consider Brate to be a player in the B to B+ range with room to improve, so even if OJ develops into an A player it isn't much of an upgrade.

He does have value in 2 TE sets, but since we don't run those all the time at least one of Brate and OJ will be a part time player. I see that as poor value for a first round pick. In my eyes it's akin to spending a first on a nickel corner or a Sam linebacker.

I'm not arguing against the player. I'm arguing against his value for this team. We have/had too many holes for a luxury pick.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Moozician » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:54 am

Tanking a season to get a better draft pick is nuts. It develops perennial losers (Cleveland, Chicago, et al) that continue to struggle. Answer me this: Has New England ever tanked a season? Yet they are in the playoffs just about every year.
Parity in the NFL TRIES to give losing teams an advantage in the draft, but I've not seen too many teams whose fortunes were reversed with a higher draft pick. Hell, our own Jameis Winston hasn't turned into a savior.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:37 am

Moozician wrote:Tanking a season to get a better draft pick is nuts. It develops perennial losers (Cleveland, Chicago, et al) that continue to struggle. Answer me this: Has New England ever tanked a season? Yet they are in the playoffs just about every year.
Parity in the NFL TRIES to give losing teams an advantage in the draft, but I've not seen too many teams whose fortunes were reversed with a higher draft pick. Hell, our own Jameis Winston hasn't turned into a savior.



TRUE, the teams with winning tradition always seem to rebound on an off year, not only that, they still find, pick, make stars on their roster happen.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby BucaRican » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:20 am

acmillis wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:

I simply asked who we missed out on since some of you think mid to late 1st round draft picks are shitty.

1 1 Cleveland Browns Myles Garrett DE Texas A&M SEC
1 2 Chicago Bears Mitchell Trubisky QB North Carolina ACC from San Francisco [R1 - 1]
1 3 San Francisco 49ers Solomon Thomas DE Stanford Pac-12 from Chicago [R1 - 2]
1 4 Jacksonville Jaguars Leonard Fournette RB LSU SEC
1 5 Tennessee Titans Corey Davis WR Western Michigan MAC from LA Rams [R1 - 3]
1 6 New York Jets Jamal Adams S LSU SEC
1 7 Los Angeles Chargers Mike Williams WR Clemson ACC
1 8 Carolina Panthers Christian McCaffrey RB Stanford Pac-12
1 9 Cincinnati Bengals John Ross WR Washington Pac-12
1 10 Kansas City Chiefs Patrick Mahomes II QB Texas Tech Big 12 from Buffalo [R1 - 4]
1 11 New Orleans Saints Marshon Lattimore CB Ohio State Big Ten
1 12 Houston Texans Deshaun Watson QB Clemson ACC from Philadelphia via Cleveland [R1 - 5]
1 13 Arizona Cardinals Haason Reddick LB Temple The American
1 14 Philadelphia Eagles Derek Barnett DE Tennessee SEC from Minnesota [R1 - 6]
1 15 Indianapolis Colts Malik Hooker S Ohio State Big Ten
1 16 Baltimore Ravens Marlon Humphrey CB Alabama SEC
1 17 Washington Redskins Jonathan Allen DT Alabama SEC
1 18 Tennessee Titans Adoree' Jackson CB USC Pac-12


Jamal Adams, Watson, Thomas and Garrett. All I would be concerned about missing on.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:30 am

BucaRican wrote:
acmillis wrote:1 1 Cleveland Browns Myles Garrett DE Texas A&M SEC
1 2 Chicago Bears Mitchell Trubisky QB North Carolina ACC from San Francisco [R1 - 1]
1 3 San Francisco 49ers Solomon Thomas DE Stanford Pac-12 from Chicago [R1 - 2]
1 4 Jacksonville Jaguars Leonard Fournette RB LSU SEC
1 5 Tennessee Titans Corey Davis WR Western Michigan MAC from LA Rams [R1 - 3]
1 6 New York Jets Jamal Adams S LSU SEC
1 7 Los Angeles Chargers Mike Williams WR Clemson ACC
1 8 Carolina Panthers Christian McCaffrey RB Stanford Pac-12
1 9 Cincinnati Bengals John Ross WR Washington Pac-12
1 10 Kansas City Chiefs Patrick Mahomes II QB Texas Tech Big 12 from Buffalo [R1 - 4]
1 11 New Orleans Saints Marshon Lattimore CB Ohio State Big Ten
1 12 Houston Texans Deshaun Watson QB Clemson ACC from Philadelphia via Cleveland [R1 - 5]
1 13 Arizona Cardinals Haason Reddick LB Temple The American
1 14 Philadelphia Eagles Derek Barnett DE Tennessee SEC from Minnesota [R1 - 6]
1 15 Indianapolis Colts Malik Hooker S Ohio State Big Ten
1 16 Baltimore Ravens Marlon Humphrey CB Alabama SEC
1 17 Washington Redskins Jonathan Allen DT Alabama SEC
1 18 Tennessee Titans Adoree' Jackson CB USC Pac-12


Jamal Adams, Watson, Thomas and Garrett. All I would be concerned about missing on.


All 4 of those teams have losing records.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby acmillis » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:49 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
BucaRican wrote:
Jamal Adams, Watson, Thomas and Garrett. All I would be concerned about missing on.


All 4 of those teams have losing records.

How many times has Joe Thomas or Calvin Johnson had winning records in their careers?
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Kress » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:52 am

This thread is the best in a while.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:12 pm

acmillis wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
All 4 of those teams have losing records.

How many times has Joe Thomas or Calvin Johnson had winning records in their careers?


Thomas once. His rookie year. Johnson twice.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Jason Bourne » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:37 pm

Kress wrote:This thread is the best in a while.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby acmillis » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:50 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
acmillis wrote:How many times has Joe Thomas or Calvin Johnson had winning records in their careers?


Thomas once. His rookie year. Johnson twice.


Thank you for answering my question.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:54 pm

acmillis wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Thomas once. His rookie year. Johnson twice.


Thank you for answering my question.


You're welcome. It's always my hope that others will do the same more often instead of asking another question.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Kress » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:30 pm

What's the question? Please answer it. Or don't. Ask me why I don't know what the question is, and in doing so ask another question yourself.

Or just throw out an insult which is a thinly-veiled question of its own because it is intended to instigate a response....
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Jason Bourne » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:35 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
acmillis wrote:
Thank you for answering my question.


You're welcome. It's always my hope that others will do the same more often instead of asking another question.


You are a beacon of hope to us all. #sarcasm
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby deltbucs » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:58 pm

Kress wrote:This thread is the best in a while.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby BucaRican » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:39 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
BucaRican wrote:
Jamal Adams, Watson, Thomas and Garrett. All I would be concerned about missing on.


All 4 of those teams have losing records.


Hence the reason they drafted so low captain obvious.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:44 pm

BucaRican wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
All 4 of those teams have losing records.


Hence the reason they drafted so low captain obvious.


That goes against the objective of tanking and getting a higher pick. Wouldn't the main goal be to get a better player who can help improve your record? Hasn't happened for any of those teams.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:45 pm

Jason Bourne wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
You're welcome. It's always my hope that others will do the same more often instead of asking another question.


You are a beacon of hope to us all. #sarcasm


Not a beacon. More like a model for what you all try to be but never will.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Jason Bourne » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:19 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:
You are a beacon of hope to us all. #sarcasm


Not a beacon. More like a model for what you all try to be but never will.


Lol’d spilled my soda
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:55 pm

What if!
The sack machine breaks out another six sacks and our offense goes off on a scoring fest.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Rocker » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:20 pm

Adrian Clayborn doesn’t play for us anymore.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Alpha » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:56 pm

Moozician wrote:Tanking a season to get a better draft pick is nuts. It develops perennial losers (Cleveland, Chicago, et al) that continue to struggle. Answer me this: Has New England ever tanked a season? Yet they are in the playoffs just about every year.
Parity in the NFL TRIES to give losing teams an advantage in the draft, but I've not seen too many teams whose fortunes were reversed with a higher draft pick. Hell, our own Jameis Winston hasn't turned into a savior.



Ummm...there are other, MAJOR factors that go along with Cleveland, CHI, et. al. sucking...and CHI did play for the SB more recently than we have.

I would suggest that changing coaches every couple of years (HELLO CLE, TB) as well as drafting poorly (TB) would differentiate perennial losers from teams like NE who have stability in coaching/FO as well as a history of drafting players that successfully fit their scheme.

"Tanking" is a misnomer. PLAYERS don't intentionally lose games. COACHES may put their teams in a position to not field the best talent at their disposal...but those players will try to play to the best of their ability. "Tanking" doesn't produce "perennial losers"...because there is no such thing. Those other factors are more indicative of losing organizations.

And calling Jameis a bum...which is essentially what you're saying...is a bit premature. Even by casual standards. Not that I expect better from you...
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby MJW » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:24 am

IchabodCrane84 wrote:I hate to interrupt this interlude, but Bootz has a point. Now whether he failed to articulate it or others have failed to acknowledge it I leave you all to bitch about for the next 7 pages.

However, what players in our past have we missed out on that would have made us better this season or future seasons? Obviously great players have been drafted before us and after us. No argument there, but I distinctly remember losing out on Joe Thomas and Calvin Johnson, but neither of those players even sniffed a Super Bowl. I remember hearing Bowers and Spence were possible overall #1 draft picks before their issues and we potentially got steals, yet we didn't. I remember finding gems like Kwon and Beckwith in later rounds. I remember kind of losing the last game of the season just so we could draft Winston, and yet here we are 3-6.

I can ramble on about what ifs and the Browns drafting and paradoxes too, but point is there's no guarantees, deal with the draft when the draft gets here.

Oh and how the hell do you tell a team to lose? How do you justify that? To the fans, coaches, players? How do you not have guys go out there and not give 100%. Isn't that how guys get hurt? How do you kill a man's desire to compete, and if you can how does that man ever respect you again?

Finally, how is that if Dirk Koetter loses the locker room and enough games he should be fired, but yet we should lose more games for better draft position?


Every shitty year, this discussion happens. And every shitty year, this point has to be made. Again.

I don't think anybody is advocating for Koetter or the players trying to lose. Nor is there any expectation from anyone that they should do anything short of giving 110% in efforts to win every damn game on the schedule.

Anyone who DOES want this is an idiot.

Now that this is clear:

What we want to happen as fans has nothing to do with what happens on the field. Nobody here has the power to affect the outcome of a game.

There is a reasonable debate between the people who would rather we win every game we can, go 6-10, and draft 11th (but have "momentum" or some kind of "pride" or some other nebulous gain), versus the people who would rather we go 3-13 and draft 4th and have that (tangible) draft capital. There are arguments to be made both ways about the health of the franchise and the benefits of either approach.

That debate has NOTHING to do with our expectations for the players or coaches. Every year, people conflate the two in order to hijack the debate. Unless you are a member of the organization, your opinion does NOT influence the ultimate outcome. Fans are not players or coaches.
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