Which Bucs HC hiring did you despise?

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Re: Which Bucs HC hiring did you despise?

Postby Patrick McIrish » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:44 am

Surrender noted.


We don't need every casual to run out and admit they aren't advanced enough to follow my logic.

If you understood it and was able to recognize genius we'd all be LEGENDS.
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Re: Which Bucs HC hiring did you despise?

Postby NYBF » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:03 am

Patrick McIrish wrote:
If you understood it and was able to recognize genius we'd all be LEGENDS.


What's that Legends Lounge forum like?
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Re: Which Bucs HC hiring did you despise?

Postby Doctor » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:59 am

Patrick McIrish wrote:We don't need every casual to run out and admit they aren't advanced enough to follow my logic.

"My logic", must be the one tucked in the shelve right in between Bootz's logic and mdb's logic.
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Re: Which Bucs HC hiring did you despise?

Postby Caradoc » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:11 pm

NYBF wrote:
Patrick McIrish wrote:
If you understood it and was able to recognize genius we'd all be LEGENDS.


What's that Legends Lounge forum like?



Probably a lot like the first three posts in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2962
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Re: Which Bucs HC hiring did you despise?

Postby beardmcdoug » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:33 pm

Caradoc wrote:
NYBF wrote:
What's that Legends Lounge forum like?



Probably a lot like the first three posts in this thread:
http://www.buczone.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2962


lmao
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Re: Which Bucs HC hiring did you despise?

Postby Doctor » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:56 pm

Caradoc wrote:
NYBF wrote:
What's that Legends Lounge forum like?



Probably a lot like the first three posts in this thread:
http://www.buczone.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2962

:lol:
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Re: Which Bucs HC hiring did you despise?

Postby Wharf Rat » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:55 pm

Moozician wrote:And which was your favorite?

For me? I hated the pick of Raheem Morris. I just didn't think he had the necessary experience to lead this team to recovery.

My favorite? Sam Wyche. Closely followed by Tony Dungy.



For me, I also hated the Morris pick. Followed closely by Schiano.

My favorite pick was Jon Gruden, by far.

Cheb wrote:I loved Gruden. Firing him was one of this franchises' biggest mistakes.



I agree 100%
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Re: Which Bucs HC hiring did you despise?

Postby CamCam » Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:39 am

Doctor wrote:Image


It's JB acting like Irish, so both.
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Re: Which Bucs HC hiring did you despise?

Postby Wharf Rat » Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:52 am

MJW wrote:It's easy to remember Gruden and the Lombardi. It's harder to think about the half-decade of consistent mediocrity, the total inability to develop draft picks, the revolving door at QB, and the collapse that ended 2008. I personally had ZERO faith at that point that Gruden could ever get us back to the title, and I doubt I'm in the minority on that.

The fact we followed him up with 3 stiffs in a row doesn't make it a bad decision.


I think a lot of people also forget that we gave up 2 1st round picks for Keyshawn, and then gave up 2 1sts and 2 2nds for Gruden, essentially selling the farm for our championship. It makes it a lot harder to overcome being over the salary cap, with aging veterans, when you have no early round picks for nearly 4 years.
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Re: Which Bucs HC hiring did you despise?

Postby Doctor » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:15 am

Wharf Rat wrote:
MJW wrote:It's easy to remember Gruden and the Lombardi. It's harder to think about the half-decade of consistent mediocrity, the total inability to develop draft picks, the revolving door at QB, and the collapse that ended 2008. I personally had ZERO faith at that point that Gruden could ever get us back to the title, and I doubt I'm in the minority on that.

The fact we followed him up with 3 stiffs in a row doesn't make it a bad decision.


I think a lot of people also forget that we gave up 2 1st round picks for Keyshawn, and then gave up 2 1sts and 2 2nds for Gruden, essentially selling the farm for our championship. It makes it a lot harder to overcome being over the salary cap, with aging veterans, when you have no early round picks for nearly 4 years.
Doctor wrote:
MJW wrote:
I never thought we "fired Gruden for Morris" as such. I always took it as, "OBP knew we weren't going anywhere with him, and was weighing it's options about in-house replacements before making the call."

It's easy to remember Gruden and the Lombardi. It's harder to think about the half-decade of consistent mediocrity, the total inability to develop draft picks, the revolving door at QB, and the collapse that ended 2008. I personally had ZERO faith at that point that Gruden could ever get us back to the title, and I doubt I'm in the minority on that.

The fact we followed him up with 3 stiffs in a row doesn't make it a bad decision.

So what? Where's the patience? Was the decade after Gruden any better? Was it worth it?

After his great run in the 90's Bill Cowher had a bad run of meh, missing the playoffs four of six years, similar to Gruden. He ended up getting a QB, rebuilding that team, and winning a SB for them.

We had some bad years after the Superbowl, no doubt. Cost we had to pay for that championship. Along with a horrible cap hell McKay put us in (totally worth it), you need to remember the two first rounders we traded away for Keyshawn and then another two first and two seconds for Gruden. I don't care who you are, that's a deadly combination for any front office to work through. But we got through it, we waited it out. And after doing all the hard part what did we do? Fire Gruden.
And who were these picks that Gruden was suppose to develop? We traded a ton away before he got in the door. The ones during his era weren't great either. You had Clayton, who had a good rookie year but went on to do nothing else. Bruce drafted Caddy despite Gruden wanting Rodgers. Bruce kept pushing Simms on Gruden despite Chris not being able to even recite the plays. Caddy was nice, but injuries ended him real quick, not his fault of course but he should've never been the pick. Davin Joseph went on to have a nice career for us. Gaines Adams was a total bust, but you can't really put that on Gruden. Here's another situation where Gruden wanted to trade up for Calvin Johnson, but Bruce thought it cost too much. Talib was also not bad. Lets not forget how Allen got rid of Lynch and Sapp. Granted, Allen was trying to fix the cap but those guys still had some left in the tank. And speaking of tank, Gruden's last year could have had an interesting playoff run had Kiffin not sold the team out to go coach with his son at the end. Not to hate on Kiffin, that guy should never have to buy a beer in Tampa again, but that's not how you transition.

Gruden squeezed great years out of freaking Brian Griese and Jeff Garcia. He got blood from stones. Had Gruden had his way we would have had an era of Rodgers throwing to Calvin Johnson. But we didn't.
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Re: Which Bucs HC hiring did you despise?

Postby Wharf Rat » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:05 pm

Doctor wrote:
Wharf Rat wrote:
I think a lot of people also forget that we gave up 2 1st round picks for Keyshawn, and then gave up 2 1sts and 2 2nds for Gruden, essentially selling the farm for our championship. It makes it a lot harder to overcome being over the salary cap, with aging veterans, when you have no early round picks for nearly 4 years.
Doctor wrote:So what? Where's the patience? Was the decade after Gruden any better? Was it worth it?

After his great run in the 90's Bill Cowher had a bad run of meh, missing the playoffs four of six years, similar to Gruden. He ended up getting a QB, rebuilding that team, and winning a SB for them.

We had some bad years after the Superbowl, no doubt. Cost we had to pay for that championship. Along with a horrible cap hell McKay put us in (totally worth it), you need to remember the two first rounders we traded away for Keyshawn and then another two first and two seconds for Gruden. I don't care who you are, that's a deadly combination for any front office to work through. But we got through it, we waited it out. And after doing all the hard part what did we do? Fire Gruden.
And who were these picks that Gruden was suppose to develop? We traded a ton away before he got in the door. The ones during his era weren't great either. You had Clayton, who had a good rookie year but went on to do nothing else. Bruce drafted Caddy despite Gruden wanting Rodgers. Bruce kept pushing Simms on Gruden despite Chris not being able to even recite the plays. Caddy was nice, but injuries ended him real quick, not his fault of course but he should've never been the pick. Davin Joseph went on to have a nice career for us. Gaines Adams was a total bust, but you can't really put that on Gruden. Here's another situation where Gruden wanted to trade up for Calvin Johnson, but Bruce thought it cost too much. Talib was also not bad. Lets not forget how Allen got rid of Lynch and Sapp. Granted, Allen was trying to fix the cap but those guys still had some left in the tank. And speaking of tank, Gruden's last year could have had an interesting playoff run had Kiffin not sold the team out to go coach with his son at the end. Not to hate on Kiffin, that guy should never have to buy a beer in Tampa again, but that's not how you transition.

Gruden squeezed great years out of freaking Brian Griese and Jeff Garcia. He got blood from stones. Had Gruden had his way we would have had an era of Rodgers throwing to Calvin Johnson. But we didn't.


Somehow I missed this. Good post, Doctor. Well said.
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Re: Which Bucs HC hiring did you despise?

Postby MJW » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:40 pm

The "Where's The Patience?" And "Gruden Didn't Have Anything To Work With!" arguments are crap.

Gruden made:
5 First Round Picks
6 Second Round Picks
8 Third Round Picks

1 of them played in a Pro Bowl for the Buccaneers - Davin Joseph.

We had a full slate of draft picks his final 4 years here. Almost none of them develop or got second contracts.

That's why Gruden got fired. Enough with the "Keyshawn/Gruden cost us first round picks!" nonsense. He was the coach of 19 different players drafted in the first three rounds and developed none of them to satisfaction.
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Re: Which Bucs HC hiring did you despise?

Postby MJW » Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:31 am

In 2008, Gruden's final year, he had been head coach for seven seasons. The complete list of his draftees who started the majority of games at their positions:

WR Michael Clayton, enough said
TE Alex Smith, who would not receive a 2nd contract
LG Arron Sears, in his final season in the league
RG Davin Joseph, the best pick he made
RT Jeremy Trueblood, who was okay at best

DE Gaines Adams, who'd be off the team next year.
LB Barrett Ruud, who got exposed.
FS Tanard Jackson, who would drug himself out of the league
SS Jermaine Phillips, who had a good run

You can count Caddy if you want, though Earnest Graham was our primary starter that year. Talib wasn't technically a starter at that point - P-Buc started over him.

That's why Gruden got fired. Seven years of drafting, the last four with a full slate of picks, and the best drafted starters in our lineup were a B/B+ guard and an average strong safety.

The 2016 Buccaneers had 4 drafted Pro Bowlers...or 4x as many as Gruden managed his entire tenure here.

Screw Chucky. He was exposed as someone who couldn't build a roster.
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Re: Which Bucs HC hiring did you despise?

Postby Cheb » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:28 am

MJW wrote:In 2008, Gruden's final year, he had been head coach for seven seasons. The complete list of his draftees who started the majority of games at their positions:

WR Michael Clayton, enough said
TE Alex Smith, who would not receive a 2nd contract
LG Arron Sears, in his final season in the league
RG Davin Joseph, the best pick he made
RT Jeremy Trueblood, who was okay at best

DE Gaines Adams, who'd be off the team next year.
LB Barrett Ruud, who got exposed.
FS Tanard Jackson, who would drug himself out of the league
SS Jermaine Phillips, who had a good run

You can count Caddy if you want, though Earnest Graham was our primary starter that year. Talib wasn't technically a starter at that point - P-Buc started over him.

That's why Gruden got fired. Seven years of drafting, the last four with a full slate of picks, and the best drafted starters in our lineup were a B/B+ guard and an average strong safety.

The 2016 Buccaneers had 4 drafted Pro Bowlers...or 4x as many as Gruden managed his entire tenure here.

Screw Chucky. He was exposed as someone who couldn't build a roster.


GMs build rosters. Coaches coach.

Gruden was here for seven seasons. He coached this team to winning seasons four times, went to the playoffs three times, and won the Superbowl. Overall record of 57-55.

In the eight years since he left, we have had two winning seasons, never went to the playoffs, and didn't even come close to the Superbowl. Overall record 45-83.

Twelve fewer wins, nearly thirty more losses. Let that sink in.

What Gruden needed was a strong GM. Instead, he got the sack of human waste that is/was Bruce Allen, who left us in cap hell with bad draft picks and has turned the Redskins into a dumpster fire. Seriously, Allen hasn't made a good decision in about fifteen years.

Gruden was a great coach. He couldn't build a roster, we all know that. But that's not his job. His job is to coach up the talent he has, and most importantly, win. He did that very well.

Gruden was great. We can agree to disagree, I suppose. If he had Jason Licht, he would have been a dynamo.
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Re: Which Bucs HC hiring did you despise?

Postby Doctor » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:42 am

Cheb wrote:
MJW wrote:In 2008, Gruden's final year, he had been head coach for seven seasons. The complete list of his draftees who started the majority of games at their positions:

WR Michael Clayton, enough said
TE Alex Smith, who would not receive a 2nd contract
LG Arron Sears, in his final season in the league
RG Davin Joseph, the best pick he made
RT Jeremy Trueblood, who was okay at best

DE Gaines Adams, who'd be off the team next year.
LB Barrett Ruud, who got exposed.
FS Tanard Jackson, who would drug himself out of the league
SS Jermaine Phillips, who had a good run

You can count Caddy if you want, though Earnest Graham was our primary starter that year. Talib wasn't technically a starter at that point - P-Buc started over him.

That's why Gruden got fired. Seven years of drafting, the last four with a full slate of picks, and the best drafted starters in our lineup were a B/B+ guard and an average strong safety.

The 2016 Buccaneers had 4 drafted Pro Bowlers...or 4x as many as Gruden managed his entire tenure here.

Screw Chucky. He was exposed as someone who couldn't build a roster.


GMs build rosters. Coaches coach.

Gruden was here for seven seasons. He coached this team to winning seasons four times, went to the playoffs three times, and won the Superbowl. Overall record of 57-55.

In the eight years since he left, we have had two winning seasons, never went to the playoffs, and didn't even come close to the Superbowl. Overall record 45-83.

Twelve fewer wins, nearly thirty more losses. Let that sink in.

What Gruden needed was a strong GM. Instead, he got the sack of human waste that is/was Bruce Allen, who left us in cap hell with bad draft picks and has turned the Redskins into a dumpster fire. Seriously, Allen hasn't made a good decision in about fifteen years.

Gruden was a great coach. He couldn't build a roster, we all know that. But that's not his job. His job is to coach up the talent he has, and most importantly, win. He did that very well.

Gruden was great. We can agree to disagree, I suppose. If he had Jason Licht, he would have been a dynamo.


Bingo. Allen was great with the cap, and I think him for fixing it, but the guy always thinks himself smarter than anyone else. Has since his days in Oakland when he was an office shark.
Even if you give Gruden a ton of credit/blame for the draft classes again, WHAT ARE YOU WORKING WITH. It takes 3-4 years before you can truly see what you got out of your draft class. So in the bulk of Gruden's tenure, we would have had all those first and second rounders coming into their own, but they weren't around. The last two to three drafts were too early to tell before he got canned but there was a lot of high hopes and praise for the last two draft classes (particularly Josh Johnson for me, who could have turned this franchise round), but instead, those draft classes got to "bloom" under Raheem. You think Talib would've walked all over Gruden? Please. This was setting us up for our nice tumble into the era of new coaches coaching the last coaches players to mediocrity.
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